adb shell pm list packages com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox(this lists it)
adb shell pm list packages -d com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox(this lists it)
adb shell "dumpsys package com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox | grep stopped="
adb shell am get-current-userThis reported that I'm user 0 when running adb
adb shell pm list usersUsers:
adb shell pm list packages --user 0 com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox(the package does NOT show up, which means it's not installe)
adb shell pm list packages --user 11 com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox(the package does show up, which means it is installed)
adb shell pm uninstall --user 11 com.google.android.googlequicksearchboxSuccess
adb shell pm list packages --user 11 com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox(the package does NOT show up, which means it's not installed)
adb shell cmd package install-existing com.google.android.googlequicksearchboxPackage com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox installed for user: 0
adb shell pm list packages --user 11 | findstr googlequicksearchbox(nothing was reported)
adb shell "run-as com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox cmd package install-existing com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox"run-as: package not debuggable: com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox
adb shell pm path com.google.android.googlequicksearchboxpackage:/product/priv-app/Velvet/Velvet.apk
adb pull /product/priv-app/Velvet/Velvet.apk .\velvet.apk/product/priv-app/Velvet/Vel... (276644880 bytes in 8.645s)
adb install --user 11 .\velvet.apkPerforming Streamed Install
adb shell pm list packages --user 11 | findstr googlequicksearchbox(it's there!)
adb shell pm uninstall --user 0 com.google.android.googlequicksearchboxSuccess
adb shell pm uninstall --user 11 com.google.android.googlequicksearchboxSuccess
adb shell pm list packages --user 0 com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox(nothing is reported)
adb shell pm list packages --user 11 com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox(nothing is reported)
In summary, this shows how Android works, where no other OS that I know of >works this way.
In summary, this shows how Android works, where no other OS that I know of >>works this way.
Are you saying that is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing?
To my knowledge, that's just one of the many things that Android does
which is unique to the Android operating system. No other OS does that, AFAIK.
To my knowledge, that's just one of the many things that Android does
which is unique to the Android operating system. No other OS does that,
AFAIK.
On Debian derivatives, while the original .deb package file is not saved
per se, it is possible to recreate it from the installed items with the dpkg-repack command.
A *huge* advantage of the APK always being there is it helps to populate another phone (or a billion other phones), since you can COPY that APK.
A *huge* advantage of the APK always being there is it helps to populate
another phone (or a billion other phones), since you can COPY that APK.
Why aren't the installer programs restricted only to the user's ID account?
On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 20:09:49 -0600, Tango Romeo wrote :
A *huge* advantage of the APK always being there is it helps to populate >>> another phone (or a billion other phones), since you can COPY that APK.
Why aren't the installer programs restricted only to the user's ID
account?
That's a deceitful lock on installers that only Apple adds.
Nobody else but Apple prevents installer re-use on HW-compatible devices.
Just Apple. It's just one of the many ways Apple fucks their own customers.
On 2025-03-28 12:50, Marion wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 20:09:49 -0600, Tango Romeo wrote :
A *huge* advantage of the APK always being there is it helps toWhy aren't the installer programs restricted only to the user's ID
populate
another phone (or a billion other phones), since you can COPY that APK. >>>
account?
That's a deceitful lock on installers that only Apple adds.
Nobody else but Apple prevents installer re-use on HW-compatible devices.
Just Apple. It's just one of the many ways Apple fucks their own
customers.
How does it "fuck" them, exactly?
Alan wrote:
On 2025-03-28 12:50, Marion wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 20:09:49 -0600, Tango Romeo wrote :
A *huge* advantage of the APK always being there is it helps to
populate
another phone (or a billion other phones), since you can COPY that
APK.
Why aren't the installer programs restricted only to the user's ID
account?
That's a deceitful lock on installers that only Apple adds.
Nobody else but Apple prevents installer re-use on HW-compatible
devices.
Just Apple. It's just one of the many ways Apple fucks their own
customers.
How does it "fuck" them, exactly?
Ahahahahahahaha.
Nobody else but Apple prevents installer re-use on HW-compatible devices. >>>
Just Apple. It's just one of the many ways Apple fucks their own
customers.
How does it "fuck" them, exactly?
Ahahahahahahaha.
On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 18:04:58 -0500, Hank Rogers wrote :
No other operating system vendor but Apple fucks their customer like that.
On Android, every free APK can be re-used on *any* compatible device.
Same with Windows. Same with Linux.
Only Apple fucks their customer with every single app that is installed.
a. Apple's lies about privacy (there's less privacy on iOS than Android)
b. Apple's app tracking (look it up!)
c. Apple's lock against reuse (of free apps!)
But Apple is a commercial system.
They do not provide free software.
On all systems, you can install
commercial software only on the machines the license entitles you.
If it is one machine, then it is a single, one, machine.
It is perfectly fair for Apple to provide commercial software. Many companies do the same for other operating systems. Nobody is obligated
to provide their software as free. It is their choice, and no, you can
not blame or insult them for that. Just don't buy it. That's your choice
as customer.
On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 13:33:43 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote :
But Apple is a commercial system.
Hi Carlos,
Both Android & iOS are unique in a way that no other operating system is:
Android is unique in that every app installed has its installer autosaved. Which is a good thing.
iOS is unique in that every app installed is locked to a single Apple ID. Which is a bad thing.
Apple *lied* when they claim iOS is more private than Android when, in
fact, Apple tracks your use of every app by a unique ID inserted by Apple.
No other operating system would *dare* to track its users so invasively.
Just Apple.
They do not provide free software.
We're talking about free app installers that the user downloads & installs.
We're talking about what's *different* about Android from other operating systems, such as that installer APK is always sitting on the file system.
That's unique to Android.
And that's a good thing.
Because that free installer can be re-used at will.
Note that on every operating system other than iOS, you can re-use a free installer on any compatible machine - so what's UNIQUE to Android is the
fact that the free installer is ALWAYS auto-saved to the device itself.
On all systems, you can install commercial software only on the
machines the license entitles you.
Re-use of commercial apps is an (almost) completely different topic.
While payware app installers are also auto-saved on Android, that only
allows the user who bought the app to re-use it within the terms of the purchase.
So, of course payware apps are locked to "something" to prevent re-use.
We're only talking here about free apps, mostly that the user installed (although for Android, the re-use extends also to installed system apps).
If it is one machine, then it is a single, one, machine.
We're talking about what's unique to Android for free apps, which is:
a. Every app installer (free or otherwise) is auto-saved on Android
b. No other operating system auto-saves that installer, by design
On my Android, as you know, I have about 900 free apps installed.
There is the original installer saved on Android for every single one.
That's how Android works. Android never deletes the original APK for installed apps.
And that is a good thing.
Because it allows re-use.
Specifically for free apps that have a "last known good version" APK.
So even if the specific app or specific version is no longer in the repositories, the user can use that app for himself & for billions of
others for as long as the hardware it's being re-used on is compatible.
That's a good thing.
It is perfectly fair for Apple to provide commercial software. Many
companies do the same for other operating systems. Nobody is obligated
to provide their software as free. It is their choice, and no, you can
not blame or insult them for that. Just don't buy it. That's your
choice as customer.
Almost everything about iOS is bad for the user in terms of app re-use.
On every other operating system other than iOS, if the user downloads and installs a free application, that app installer, if saved, still works on *billions* of other similar devices (let's always assume they're compatible in terms of hardware & API levels for the purpose of this discussion).
Only on iOS does a free installer only work for one user & one user only.
That's unique to iOS.
And that's a bad thing.
And only on iOS, does the mothership insert a unique tracking ID into every app, and then Apple uses that tracking ID to invade your privacy every day.
The extent of that privacy invasion inserted on every app is unique to iOS. And that's a bad thing.
The extent of that privacy invasion inserted on every app is unique to iOS. >> And that's a bad thing.
Nah, apple and android both screw their customers, just in different
ways. But neither has been as successful as Trump.
On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 16:00:13 -0500, Hank Rogers wrote :
The extent of that privacy invasion inserted on every app is unique
to iOS.
And that's a bad thing.
Nah, apple and android both screw their customers, just in different
ways. But neither has been as successful as Trump.
I don't disagree that both Apple & Google (and Microsoft too) screw their customers trying to make a buck off of them, but what's unique isn't that.
What's unique to Android that no other operating system does, is Android saves every installer automatically. The installer is always there.
And that's good.
What's unique to Android that no other operating system does, is Android
saves every installer automatically. The installer is always there.
And that's good.
Unless you need the space...
We're talking about free app installers that the user downloads & installs.
We're talking about what's *different* about Android from other operating systems, such as that installer APK is always sitting on the file system.
That's unique to Android.And that's a good thing.
Because that free installer can be re-used at will.
On Sun, 30 Mar 2025 17:04:13 -0700, Alan wrote:
What's unique to Android that no other operating system does, is Android >>> saves every installer automatically. The installer is always there.
And that's good.
Unless you need the space...
With many Android phones you can double the storage space in an instant.
What's unique to Android that no other operating system does, is Android >>>> saves every installer automatically. The installer is always there.
And that's good.
Unless you need the space...
With many Android phones you can double the storage space in an instant.
Only, if you can use MicroSD cards *and* if you configure the card to be
used as "internal memory".
Otherwise they only get added as external storage and can *not* be
used to install apps on them.
And since MicroSD cards tend to work much less reliable than internal
memory, you may also experience problems when using them this way.
And
if the card does not work any longer, this usally means you have to
setup at least all affected apps again and sometimes your whole device starting with a fresh installation, because you can not just replace the
card *after* you have configured it as "internal memory".
A better approach is to get a device with enough internal memory for all
your apps and their data (even mainstream devices provide at least 128
GB or more nowadays) and use an MicroSD card for additional data like pictures, music etc. only.
We're talking about free app installers that the user downloads & installs. >>
We're talking about what's *different* about Android from other operating
systems, such as that installer APK is always sitting on the file system. >>> That's unique to Android.
And that's a good thing.
Because that free installer can be re-used at will.
Just keep in mind, that newer are not published using APK any longer but using AAB (Android Application Bundle). This means, the device only gets
an APK generated by Google with files required for that specific device configuration. This *may* work on other devices as well if they are
similar enough - but you also may have to download the app again on the
other device, for example when the app uses native code which needs to
be specific for the CPU architecture of the device.
Also see: <https://developer.android.com/guide/app-bundle>
On Mon, 31 Mar 2025 11:04:51 +0200, Arno Welzel wrote:
What's unique to Android that no other operating system does, is Android >>>>> saves every installer automatically. The installer is always there.
And that's good.
Unless you need the space...
With many Android phones you can double the storage space in an instant.
Only, if you can use MicroSD cards *and* if you configure the card to be
used as "internal memory".
That's just wrong. https://www.samsung.com/uk/support/mobile-devices/using-an-sd-card/
Otherwise they only get added as external storage and can *not* be
used to install apps on them.
There are two use models for sdcards. Integrated Storage (also known as Internal Expansion) & Removable Storage (also known as Portable Storage). https://support.google.com/android/answer/12153449?hl=en
And since MicroSD cards tend to work much less reliable than internal
memory, you may also experience problems when using them this way.
While anything can fail, your argument against removable storage is first wrong, and now faulty. https://www.wikihow.com/Use-an-SD-Card-on-Android
Your argument is wickedly against trains because truck tires can go flat?
Your entire argument is first dead wrong & second overly pessimistic.
Yup. The Android newsgroup discussed AAB's before that change happened.
*Google is moving away from APKs on the Play Store*
*for new apps as AABs starting in August 2021* (June 30, 2021)
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/yVBkScCyI_I/>
Has anything changed since June 30, 2021 on those details?
Specifically, now that we're four years later into AABs, what has changed?
For me, I haven't noticed anything detrimental. Have you?
On Sun, 30 Mar 2025 17:04:13 -0700, Alan wrote:
What's unique to Android that no other operating system does, is Android >>> saves every installer automatically. The installer is always there.
And that's good.
Unless you need the space...
With many Android phones you can double the storage space in an instant.
Here's a 128GB high quality SanDisk 200MB/s sdcard for twenty bucks. https://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-128GB-Extreme-UHS-I-Memory/dp/B09X7FXHVJ/
If that is too small, here's a fast 512GB card for thirty-five bucks. https://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-microSDXC-Nintendo-Switch-MB-ME512SA-AM/ dp/B0CWPPMD8W/
How much does it cost to double storage space on a typical iPhone?
On Sun, 30 Mar 2025 17:04:13 -0700, Alan wrote:
What's unique to Android that no other operating system does, is Android >>> saves every installer automatically. The installer is always there.
And that's good.
Unless you need the space...
With many Android phones you can double the storage space in an instant.
Here's a 128GB high quality SanDisk 200MB/s sdcard for twenty bucks. https://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-128GB-Extreme-UHS-I-Memory/dp/B09X7FXHVJ/
If that is too small, here's a fast 512GB card for thirty-five bucks. https://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-microSDXC-Nintendo-Switch-MB-ME512SA-AM/dp/B0CWPPMD8W/
How much does it cost to double storage space on a typical iPhone?
How much does it cost to double storage space on a typical iPhone?
Very little since you can easily use any external drive, including relatively dirt cheap, high capacity hard drives. At worst, you'll need
to add an adaptor to the price.
But of course, as the usual anti-Apple know-nothing troll, you don't
realise that actual fact nor the fact that most people simply don't
give a crap about increasing their device's storage capacity, whether
that is Apple or Android.
For me, I haven't noticed anything detrimental. Have you?
So you don't wish to have this mentioned this, just because years ago
this was already discussed?
Your entire argument is first dead wrong & second overly pessimistic.
No, it is based on nearly 20 years of experience with that. Do you want
all my dead microSD cards? I can give you many examples of cards which
died over the years.
On 2025-03-31 00:16, Bill Powell wrote:
On Sun, 30 Mar 2025 17:04:13 -0700, Alan wrote:
What's unique to Android that no other operating system does, is
Android
saves every installer automatically. The installer is always there.
And that's good.
Unless you need the space...
With many Android phones you can double the storage space in an instant.
But far from all.
And I bet there are a lot of users who don't realize they can do that.
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software.
On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 13:33:43 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM
and CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as “providing” Free software to you?
Both Apple & Google don't want you to have inexpensive reliable storage.
Can you guess why?
On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 13:33:43 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM and
CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as “providing” Free software to
you?
I pay Google 2 bucks/mo US for 1GB.
Typo. Should be 100GB
Not a big $$$ deal for me. YMMV. I use
it for off site backup (like if the house burns down) and it is also
conveniently available to any of my devices pretty much anywhere if wanted >> or needed. A card just wouldn't provide the same service or use, although I >> do keep one locally in case Google burns down.
On 2025-04-02 04:10, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 13:33:43 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM and
CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as “providing” Free software to
you?
Ok, agreed, they do provide some free software.
The point was that Apple & Google don't put the sd card slot in phones for >>a reason, which is NOT that they want to give you the best phone possible.
Guess you missed my point (and fact). Unlike Apple iOS devices the vast vast
majority of Android phones (and tablets etc) that run Google accounts and
apps are NOT made by Google and thus Google has no say over whether the
device has a slot or not. That is the *individual manufacturers* choice...
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM and
CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as �providing� Free software to >>> you?
Ok, agreed, they do provide some free software.
Apple of course provides a ton of free software for users of Apple
devices, including iMovie, Garage Band, Mail, Safari, Passwords, Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Music, Messages, Photos, Time Machine, etc. ... plus
the various Apple operating systems themselves.
So my statements remain backed up that Google & Apple don't provide what >>over three quarters of Samsung phones provide, and Samsung is clearly the >>best seller on the market bar none (Apple iPhones don't even come close).
I guess it's how one reads your original statement. When one compares Apple
and Google phones I think most folks think Android phones with Google
installed. But you are correct if you mean only Google Pixel phones. I
guess what threw me off is that would leave out the majority of the
non-Apple market, many with no slots. Shouldn't they have required some of
your wrath too?
I wonder if people buy Samsungs because they don't have the strategy of >>fleecing them by removing hardware so that the consumer has to buy it back?
I bought my Samsung phone over 5 years ago and I can't remember what my
reasons were for buying it over other brands. But I can tell you it is
still a virgin. I've never had any need to stick anything in it's slot...
On Thu, 3 Apr 2025 09:34:53 +1300, Your Name wrote :
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM and >>>> CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as ´providing¡ Free software to
you?
Ok, agreed, they do provide some free software.
Apple of course provides a ton of free software for users of Apple
devices, including iMovie, Garage Band, Mail, Safari, Passwords, Pages,
Numbers, Keynote, Music, Messages, Photos, Time Machine, etc. ... plus
the various Apple operating systems themselves.
There is a ton of "free software" for both iOS and for Android.
What's unique about iOS is that you can't re-use that free software.
That's bad.
On 2025-04-02 16:38, Marion wrote:
On Thu, 3 Apr 2025 09:34:53 +1300, Your Name wrote :
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM and
CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as ´providing¡ Free software to
you?
Ok, agreed, they do provide some free software.
Apple of course provides a ton of free software for users of Apple devices, including iMovie, Garage Band, Mail, Safari, Passwords, Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Music, Messages, Photos, Time Machine, etc. ... plus the various Apple operating systems themselves.
There is a ton of "free software" for both iOS and for Android.
What's unique about iOS is that you can't re-use that free software.
That's bad.
It would be...
...if it were true...
...but it's false.
On Apr 3, 2025, Alan wrote
(in article <vsmtpv$1kssr$5@dont-email.me>):
On 2025-04-02 16:38, Marion wrote:
On Thu, 3 Apr 2025 09:34:53 +1300, Your Name wrote :
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM and
CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as ´providing¡ Free software to
you?
Ok, agreed, they do provide some free software.
Apple of course provides a ton of free software for users of Apple devices, including iMovie, Garage Band, Mail, Safari, Passwords, Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Music, Messages, Photos, Time Machine, etc. ... plus the various Apple operating systems themselves.
There is a ton of "free software" for both iOS and for Android.
What's unique about iOS is that you can't re-use that free software. That's bad.
Hmm. Looks at nice shiny new iPhone 16, currently downloading all the stuff which was on the iPhone 11 which I had before updating to a 16. All of it. Looks at the old iPhone 11, sitting next to the 16. Is all my stuff still there? Why yes it is. I’m going to have to erase the 11 before sending it off to AT&T to get the refund to apply to the price of the 16. Until then, all my stuff, including all the free Apple stuff, will be on two phones. Hmm... now where is that... ah, there it is. My ancient iPhone 6, which had been too old to trade in on the 11. Let me plug it in and power it up... why there is all my stuff as it was before I got the 11. As the 6 no longer has a SIM, it can’t make calls... if it’s not on a network with a device with the same AppleID. Which it is. It can use my old stuff. It can be upgraded to the limits of the hardware. It can make calls. Why. all my old free Apple stuff is in _three_ places. Damn, that’s good for something which can’t be re-used...
Oh. Wait. I have an iPad. Did the stuff from the iPhone show on the iPad? Why yes it did. That’s _four_ places, all of which can be used, two of which can run all of the latest and greatest versions, one more of which can run most of the latest and greatest until I reformat it to send it to AT&T. And if I didn’t want AT&T’s bounty I’d be able to use the 11, just as I can still use the 6. Note that ’same network as a device with the same AppleID’ includes Macs and, to a limited extent, iCloud-equipped WinBoxen. I can use the 6 as a phone. Still. Even if I don’t have the 16, the 11, or the iPad. I can use the apps, including the Apple apps, on it...
And I can use iCloud web apps on the WinBoxen, including Find My, Maps, iWork, more... Damn. That’s _seven_ places, one made by ASUS, one. by Lenovo, one by MSI, not Apple! Damn! is there no limit to Apple’s perfidy? Forcing users to be able to use free Apple stuff ANYWHERE THEY BLOODY WANT TO? The horror. The horror.
It would be...
...if it were true...
...but it's false.
Alden’s an idiot.
There is a ton of "free software" for both iOS and for Android.
What's unique about iOS is that you can't re-use that free software.
That's bad.
Hmm. Looks at nice shiny new iPhone 16, currently downloading all the stuff which was on the iPhone 11 which I had before updating to a 16. All of it. Looks at the old iPhone 11, sitting next to the 16. Is all my stuff still there? Why yes it is.
I'm going to have to erase the 11 before sending it
off to AT&T to get the refund to apply to the price of the 16.
Until then,
all my stuff, including all the free Apple stuff, will be on two phones. Hmm... now where is that... ah, there it is. My ancient iPhone 6, which had been too old to trade in on the 11. Let me plug it in and power it up... why there is all my stuff as it was before I got the 11. As the 6 no longer has a
SIM, it can't make calls... if it's not on a network with a device with
the same AppleID. Which it is. It can use my old stuff. It can be upgraded to
the limits of the hardware. It can make calls. Why. all my old free Apple stuff is in _three_ places. Damn, that's good for something which can't
be re-used...
Oh. Wait. I have an iPad. Did the stuff from the iPhone show on the iPad? Why
yes it did. That's _four_ places, all of which can be used, two of which
can run all of the latest and greatest versions, one more of which can run most of the latest and greatest until I reformat it to send it to AT&T. And if I didn't want AT&T's bounty I'd be able to use the 11, just as I can still use the 6. Note that 'same network as a device with the same
AppleID' includes Macs and, to a limited extent, iCloud-equipped WinBoxen.
I can use the 6 as a phone. Still. Even if I don't have the 16, the 11, or the iPad. I can use the apps, including the Apple apps, on it...
And I can use iCloud web apps on the WinBoxen, including Find My, Maps, iWork, more... Damn. That's _seven_ places, one made by ASUS, one. by Lenovo, one by MSI, not Apple! Damn! is there no limit to Apple's perfidy? Forcing users to be able to use free Apple stuff ANYWHERE THEY BLOODY WANT TO? The horror. The horror.
Apple of course provides a ton of free software for users of Apple
devices, including iMovie, Garage Band, Mail, Safari, Passwords, Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Music, Messages, Photos, Time Machine, etc. ... plus
the various Apple operating systems themselves.
On Thu, 3 Apr 2025 09:34:53 +1300, Your Name wrote :
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM and >>>> CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as ´providing¡ Free software to
you?
Ok, agreed, they do provide some free software.
Apple of course provides a ton of free software for users of Apple
devices, including iMovie, Garage Band, Mail, Safari, Passwords, Pages,
Numbers, Keynote, Music, Messages, Photos, Time Machine, etc. ... plus
the various Apple operating systems themselves.
There is a ton of "free software" for both iOS and for Android.
What's unique about iOS is that you can't re-use that free software.
That's bad.
What's common about all other operating systems is that you can.--
That's good.
On 2025-04-03 01:38, Marion wrote:
On Thu, 3 Apr 2025 09:34:53 +1300, Your Name wrote :
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software. >>>>>The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM and >>>>> CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as ´providing¡ Free software to
you?
Ok, agreed, they do provide some free software.
Apple of course provides a ton of free software for users of Apple
devices, including iMovie, Garage Band, Mail, Safari, Passwords, Pages,
Numbers, Keynote, Music, Messages, Photos, Time Machine, etc. ... plus
the various Apple operating systems themselves.
There is a ton of "free software" for both iOS and for Android.
What's unique about iOS is that you can't re-use that free software.
That's bad.
Then it is not Free software. Free as in Freedom.
What's common about all other operating systems is that you can.
That's good.
On 2025-04-02 16:38, Marion wrote:
On Thu, 3 Apr 2025 09:34:53 +1300, Your Name wrote :
But Apple is a commercial system. They do not provide free software. >>>>>The two are not mutually exclusive. Some Apple funding goes to LLVM and >>>>> CUPS, that I can think of. Does that count as ´providing¡ Free software to
you?
Ok, agreed, they do provide some free software.
Apple of course provides a ton of free software for users of Apple
devices, including iMovie, Garage Band, Mail, Safari, Passwords, Pages,
Numbers, Keynote, Music, Messages, Photos, Time Machine, etc. ... plus
the various Apple operating systems themselves.
There is a ton of "free software" for both iOS and for Android.
What's unique about iOS is that you can't re-use that free software.
That's bad.
It would be...
...if it were true...
...but it's false.
"Free software" is usually open source and you can use the source code
for your own versions with any modifications you want to apply to it.
On Mon, 7 Apr 2025 18:57:32 +0200, Arno Welzel wrote :
"Free software" is usually open source and you can use the source code
for your own versions with any modifications you want to apply to it.
Hi Arno,
I use iOS and Windows and Android concurrently, all day, every day.
Most people do not (and I used to use Linux all day, every day too).
So I know what's UNIQUE about iOS when it comes to Apple IPA locks.
You're apparently responding to Alan Baker, who, besides being an Apple
troll (i.e., one who brazenly denies everything he hates about Apple products), has never in his life ever used Windows, Linux or Android.
No other common consumer operating system restricts free app re-use.
Only Apple.
No other common consumer operating system restricts free app re-use.
Only Apple.
that defines that software as "non Free", period. Don't beat
around the bush. Meaning, don't write long explanations. That is not
Free software. It may be gratis, but it is not Free. Uppercase.
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 00:45:01 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :
No other common consumer operating system restricts free app re-use.
Only Apple.
that defines that software as "non Free", period. Don't beat
around the bush. Meaning, don't write long explanations. That is not
Free software. It may be gratis, but it is not Free. Uppercase.
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific Apple ID.
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is free.
Only Apple.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does to it.
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when
distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific Apple ID.
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is free.
Only Apple.
AGAIN, that is not FREE Software.
Stop calling it Free. It ain't. This is serious, Arlen. Study it up. You claim to be clever. Be it.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does to it.
I don't care who does it.
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 02:37:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when
distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific Apple ID.
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is free.
Only Apple.
AGAIN, that is not FREE Software.
Stop calling it Free. It ain't. This is serious, Arlen. Study it up. You
claim to be clever. Be it.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does to it.
I don't care who does it.
The fact that only Apple adds locks (to an Apple ID) on software that no other operating system locks is the technical point that matters here.
That lock goes on *all* software from Apple. Every single app. Every type.
No matter what type of app it is. It gets that unique lock only Apple does.
That's what's different. The lock. It's unique. Only Apple does that.
That lock prevents re-use. And that lock allows Apple to track you.
And that's what's bad.
Am I mis-reading what is being posted here??
Both Marion *AND* Carlos E.R. seem to be suggesting that *only* Apple
locks a user into their/Apples system .... Other OSs/systems are not
locking their users into THEIR OSs/Systems.
Or am I mis-understanding what is being posted??
The *reason* you can't re-use Apple IPAs is Apple locks the downloaded software to a specific unique Apple ID so that it can only be installed on devices with that specific unique Apple ID.
On 8/4/2025, Marion wrote:
The *reason* you can't re-use Apple IPAs is Apple locks the downloaded
software to a specific unique Apple ID so that it can only be installed on >> devices with that specific unique Apple ID.
What happens if you subsequently remove the Apple ID from the iOS device?
On 8/04/2025 4:07 pm, Marion wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 02:37:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :Am I mis-reading what is being posted here??
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when
distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific Apple ID. >>>>
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is free.
Only Apple.
AGAIN, that is not FREE Software.
Stop calling it Free. It ain't. This is serious, Arlen. Study it up. You >>> claim to be clever. Be it.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does to it. >>>I don't care who does it.
The fact that only Apple adds locks (to an Apple ID) on software that no
other operating system locks is the technical point that matters here.
That lock goes on *all* software from Apple. Every single app. Every
type.
No matter what type of app it is. It gets that unique lock only Apple
does.
That's what's different. The lock. It's unique. Only Apple does that.
That lock prevents re-use. And that lock allows Apple to track you.
And that's what's bad.
Both Marion *AND* Carlos E.R. seem to be suggesting that *only* Apple
locks a user into their/Apples system .... Other OSs/systems are not
locking their users into THEIR OSs/Systems.
Or am I mis-understanding what is being posted??
On 2025-04-08 11:19, Daniel70 wrote:
On 8/04/2025 4:07 pm, Marion wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 02:37:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :Am I mis-reading what is being posted here??
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when >>>>> distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific Apple >>>>> ID.
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is free. >>>>> Only Apple.
AGAIN, that is not FREE Software.
Stop calling it Free. It ain't. This is serious, Arlen. Study it up.
You
claim to be clever. Be it.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does to >>>>> it.
I don't care who does it.
The fact that only Apple adds locks (to an Apple ID) on software that no >>> other operating system locks is the technical point that matters here.
That lock goes on *all* software from Apple. Every single app. Every
type.
No matter what type of app it is. It gets that unique lock only Apple
does.
That's what's different. The lock. It's unique. Only Apple does that.
That lock prevents re-use. And that lock allows Apple to track you.
And that's what's bad.
Both Marion *AND* Carlos E.R. seem to be suggesting that *only* Apple
locks a user into their/Apples system .... Other OSs/systems are not
locking their users into THEIR OSs/Systems.
Or am I mis-understanding what is being posted??
No, I am saying nothing about the lock. I don't care, I don't have any Apple.
What I say is that if there is a lock, the Apple software may be gratis,
but it is not Free (as in Freedom). Free means I am free to take the
source code, remove the lock, recompile, and sell it myself. With
variants in the details by the licensing.
This is very bad manners.
On 2025-04-08 04:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-08 11:19, Daniel70 wrote:
On 8/04/2025 4:07 pm, Marion wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 02:37:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :Am I mis-reading what is being posted here??
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when >>>>>> distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific
Apple ID.
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is free. >>>>>> Only Apple.
AGAIN, that is not FREE Software.
Stop calling it Free. It ain't. This is serious, Arlen. Study it
up. You
claim to be clever. Be it.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does
to it.
I don't care who does it.
The fact that only Apple adds locks (to an Apple ID) on software
that no
other operating system locks is the technical point that matters here. >>>>
That lock goes on *all* software from Apple. Every single app. Every
type.
No matter what type of app it is. It gets that unique lock only
Apple does.
That's what's different. The lock. It's unique. Only Apple does that.
That lock prevents re-use. And that lock allows Apple to track you.
And that's what's bad.
Both Marion *AND* Carlos E.R. seem to be suggesting that *only* Apple
locks a user into their/Apples system .... Other OSs/systems are not
locking their users into THEIR OSs/Systems.
Or am I mis-understanding what is being posted??
No, I am saying nothing about the lock. I don't care, I don't have any
Apple.
What I say is that if there is a lock, the Apple software may be
gratis, but it is not Free (as in Freedom). Free means I am free to
take the source code, remove the lock, recompile, and sell it myself.
With variants in the details by the licensing.
Carlos, you personally don't get to decide for the world what the word "free" means.
Sorry to burst your bubble on this.
On 2025-04-08 04:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-08 11:19, Daniel70 wrote:Carlos, you personally don't get to decide for the world what the word
On 8/04/2025 4:07 pm, Marion wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 02:37:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :Am I mis-reading what is being posted here??
There is free open source software which does not cost money but
when distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific >>>>>> Apple ID.
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is
free.
Only Apple.
AGAIN, that is not FREE Software.
Stop calling it Free. It ain't. This is serious, Arlen. Study it up. >>>>> You claim to be clever. Be it.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does to >>>>>> it.
I don't care who does it.
The fact that only Apple adds locks (to an Apple ID) on software that
no other operating system locks is the technical point that matters
here.
That lock goes on *all* software from Apple. Every single app. Every
type.
No matter what type of app it is. It gets that unique lock only Apple
does.
That's what's different. The lock. It's unique. Only Apple does that.
That lock prevents re-use. And that lock allows Apple to track you.
And that's what's bad.
Both Marion *AND* Carlos E.R. seem to be suggesting that *only* Apple
locks a user into their/Apples system .... Other OSs/systems are not
locking their users into THEIR OSs/Systems.
Or am I mis-understanding what is being posted??
No, I am saying nothing about the lock. I don't care, I don't have any
Apple.
What I say is that if there is a lock, the Apple software may be
gratis,
but it is not Free (as in Freedom). Free means I am free to take the
source code, remove the lock, recompile, and sell it myself. With
variants in the details by the licensing.
"free" means.
Sorry to burst your bubble on this.
On 2025-04-08 18:42, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-08 04:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-08 11:19, Daniel70 wrote:Carlos, you personally don't get to decide for the world what the word
On 8/04/2025 4:07 pm, Marion wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 02:37:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :Am I mis-reading what is being posted here??
There is free open source software which does not cost money but >>>>>>> when distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific >>>>>>> Apple ID.
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is
free.
Only Apple.
AGAIN, that is not FREE Software.
Stop calling it Free. It ain't. This is serious, Arlen. Study it
up. You claim to be clever. Be it.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does >>>>>>> to it.
I don't care who does it.
The fact that only Apple adds locks (to an Apple ID) on software
that no other operating system locks is the technical point that
matters here.
That lock goes on *all* software from Apple. Every single app. Every >>>>> type.
No matter what type of app it is. It gets that unique lock only
Apple does.
That's what's different. The lock. It's unique. Only Apple does
that.
That lock prevents re-use. And that lock allows Apple to track you.
And that's what's bad.
Both Marion *AND* Carlos E.R. seem to be suggesting that *only* Apple
locks a user into their/Apples system .... Other OSs/systems are not
locking their users into THEIR OSs/Systems.
Or am I mis-understanding what is being posted??
No, I am saying nothing about the lock. I don't care, I don't have any
Apple.
What I say is that if there is a lock, the Apple software may be
gratis, but it is not Free (as in Freedom). Free means I am free to
take the source code, remove the lock, recompile, and sell it myself.
With variants in the details by the licensing.
"free" means.
It is not my definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
*Free software*
Free software, libre software, libreware[1][2] sometimes known as freedom-respecting software is computer software distributed under terms
that allow users to run the software for any purpose as well as to
study, change, distribute it and any adapted versions.[3][4][5][6] Free software is a matter of liberty, not price; all users are legally free
to do what they want with their copies of a free software (including profiting from them) regardless of how much is paid to obtain the program.[7][2] Computer programs are deemed "free" if they give
end-users (not just the developer) ultimate control over the software
and, subsequently, over their devices.[5][8]
The right to study and modify a computer program entails that the source code—the preferred format for making changes—be made available to users of that program. While this is often called "access to source code" or "public availability", the Free Software Foundation (FSF) recommends
against thinking in those terms,[9] because it might give the impression
that users have an obligation (as opposed to a right) to give non-users
a copy of the program.
Although the term "free software" had already been used loosely in the
past and other permissive software like the Berkeley Software
Distribution released in 1978 existed,[10] Richard Stallman is credited
with tying it to the sense under discussion and starting the free
software movement in 1983, when he launched the GNU Project: a
collaborative effort to create a freedom-respecting operating system,
and to revive the spirit of cooperation once prevalent among hackers
during the early days of computing.[11][12]
Sorry to burst your bubble on this.
Sorry to burst yours.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
On 2025-04-08 11:19, Daniel70 wrote:
On 8/04/2025 4:07 pm, Marion wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 02:37:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when >>>>> distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific Apple ID. >>>>>
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is free. >>>>> Only Apple.
AGAIN, that is not FREE Software.
Stop calling it Free. It ain't. This is serious, Arlen. Study it up. You >>>> claim to be clever. Be it.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does to it. >>>>I don't care who does it.
The fact that only Apple adds locks (to an Apple ID) on software that no >>> other operating system locks is the technical point that matters here.
That lock goes on *all* software from Apple. Every single app. Every type. >>> No matter what type of app it is. It gets that unique lock only Apple does. >>>
That's what's different. The lock. It's unique. Only Apple does that.
That lock prevents re-use. And that lock allows Apple to track you.
And that's what's bad.
Am I mis-reading what is being posted here??
Both Marion *AND* Carlos E.R. seem to be suggesting that *only* Apple
locks a user into their/Apples system .... Other OSs/systems are not
locking their users into THEIR OSs/Systems.
Or am I mis-understanding what is being posted??
No, I am saying nothing about the lock. I don't care, I don't have any Apple.
What I say is that if there is a lock,
the Apple software may be gratis, but it is not Free (as in Freedom).
Free means I am free to take the source code, remove the lock,
recompile, and sell it myself. With variants in the details by the licensing.
There is no "lock". Purchases from Apple's App Store are linked to the
Apple user ID, but that's simply because not all apps on the App Store
are free, so they are all linked to an user ID. If you've bought an app
or downloaded a free app, then you can easily re-download it on any new device (assuming it works on it) at no cost simply by using the same
Apple user ID.
If it's a free app, then any other user can download it using their own Apple user ID anyway.
It is of course just the usual anti-Apple, know-nothing trolls like
"Marion" making a massive mountain out of a grain of sand.
When an IPA is installed on an iOS device, it's signed with a provisioning profile that is tied to a specific Apple Developer account and a set of authorized devices. For apps downloaded from the App Store, this process is managed by Apple and linked to your Apple ID.
All apps, even those which might be considered "free & open source" suffer this process, since every single app ever downloaded from Apple's App Store restricts their usage to the Apple ID that originally downloaded them.
The question now arises as to *why* Apple adds your unique Apple ID to
every app installed from the Apple App Store, even those which you'd otherwise consider to be "free & open source". Note that Apple can track
not only your usage of that app, but meta data inherent in that usage.
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 00:45:01 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :
No other common consumer operating system restricts free app re-use.
Only Apple.
that defines that software as "non Free", period. Don't beat
around the bush. Meaning, don't write long explanations. That is not
Free software. It may be gratis, but it is not Free. Uppercase.
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific Apple ID.
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 19:19:39 +1000, Daniel70 wrote :
Am I mis-reading what is being posted here??
Both Marion *AND* Carlos E.R. seem to be suggesting that *only* Apple
locks a user into their/Apples system .... Other OSs/systems are not
locking their users into THEIR OSs/Systems.
Or am I mis-understanding what is being posted??
Assuming compatible hardware & operating system APIs... it's a fact that...
1. On Windows, Linux, Android & to some extent macOS, if you download
any installer (from anywhere), that installer can (almost always)
be re-used on any other similar machine (assuming compatible hardware).
2. On iOS, it can't.
The *reason* you can't re-use Apple IPAs is Apple locks the downloaded software to a specific unique Apple ID so that it can only be installed on devices with that specific unique Apple ID.
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 13:07:50 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :
This is very bad manners.
Speaking of bad manners, the point of this offshoot is about good & bad.
1. Only iOS *locks* every installer to a specific unique ID.
2. This is bad for two reasons, one of which is it prevents reuse.
On 2025-04-08 04:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:[...]
What I say is that if there is a lock, the Apple software may be gratis,
but it is not Free (as in Freedom). Free means I am free to take the
source code, remove the lock, recompile, and sell it myself. With
variants in the details by the licensing.
Carlos, you personally don't get to decide for the world what the word "free" means.
On 8 Apr 2025 22:55:30 GMT, vallor wrote :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
Since you and Carlos are the ones who know more than I do about this...
"LocalSend is fundamentally free and open-source software (FOSS).
This means its source code is publicly available, allowing anyone
to inspect, modify, and distribute it. This core principle
remains regardless of how it's distributed."
I aim for software that is akin to free beer, where I don't generally
modify that beer and then redistribute it, but, Apple seems to be doing
that in a way that is sanctioned by the provider of that free beer.
<https://github.com/localsend/localsend/>
That is, if we go to the web page for LocalSend, it has a privacy policy.
<https://localsend.org/>
Then, that LocalSend site has a link to an iOS section.
<https://localsend.org/download?os=ios>
Which then takes us to the suggested iOS IPA on the Apple App Store.
<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/localsend/id1661733229>
When you download that IPA, you can only do so with a valid Apple ID.
And then Apple unilaterally inserts not only a lock to that Apple ID,
but Apple also invasively tracks your every use of that software,
outside of the original privacy policy of the LocalSend web page.
Given those facts, now what would you call this software knowing that?
Marion, 2025-04-07 22:34:
[...]
When an IPA is installed on an iOS device, it's signed with a provisioning profile that is tied to a specific Apple Developer account and a set of authorized devices. For apps downloaded from the App Store, this process is managed by Apple and linked to your Apple ID.
All apps, even those which might be considered "free & open source" suffer this process, since every single app ever downloaded from Apple's App Store restricts their usage to the Apple ID that originally downloaded them.
Well - in that case this is irrelevant, since free apps can be
downloaded again from the original source.
On 2025-04-08 11:06:55 +0000, Carlos E.R. said:
On 2025-04-08 11:19, Daniel70 wrote:
On 8/04/2025 4:07 pm, Marion wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2025 02:37:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when >>>>>> distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific
Apple ID.
No other operating system vendor does that for software that is free. >>>>>> Only Apple.
AGAIN, that is not FREE Software.
Stop calling it Free. It ain't. This is serious, Arlen. Study it
up. You
claim to be clever. Be it.
Call it whatever you want to call it, but that's what Apple does
to it.
I don't care who does it.
The fact that only Apple adds locks (to an Apple ID) on software
that no
other operating system locks is the technical point that matters here. >>>>
That lock goes on *all* software from Apple. Every single app. Every
type.
No matter what type of app it is. It gets that unique lock only
Apple does.
That's what's different. The lock. It's unique. Only Apple does that.
That lock prevents re-use. And that lock allows Apple to track you.
And that's what's bad.
Am I mis-reading what is being posted here??
Both Marion *AND* Carlos E.R. seem to be suggesting that *only* Apple
locks a user into their/Apples system .... Other OSs/systems are not
locking their users into THEIR OSs/Systems.
Or am I mis-understanding what is being posted??
No, I am saying nothing about the lock. I don't care, I don't have any
Apple.
What I say is that if there is a lock,
There is no "lock". Purchases from Apple's App Store are linked to the
Apple user ID, but that's simply because not all apps on the App Store
are free, so they are all linked to an user ID. If you've bought an app
or downloaded a free app, then you can easily re-download it on any new device (assuming it works on it) at no cost simply by using the same
Apple user ID.
If it's a free app, then any other user can download it using their own Apple user ID anyway.
It is of course just the usual anti-Apple, know-nothing trolls like
"Marion" making a massive mountain out of a grain of sand.
the Apple software may be gratis, but it is not Free (as in Freedom).
Free means you don't pay any money for it. It has nothing to do with "freedom".
Free means I am free to take the source code, remove the lock,
recompile, and sell it myself. With variants in the details by the
licensing.
That is "open source", an entirely different thing. Plus "open source"
is not always actually free, since in some cases you actually still have
to pay for it.
This is very bad manners.
Speaking of bad manners, the point of this offshoot is about good & bad.
1. Only iOS *locks* every installer to a specific unique ID.
2. This is bad for two reasons, one of which is it prevents reuse.
Which is irrelevant for most cases, since installer files can not just
be copied from one iPhone to another anyway.
The *reason* you can't re-use Apple IPAs is Apple locks the downloaded
software to a specific unique Apple ID so that it can only be installed on >> devices with that specific unique Apple ID.
Yes - so what? Nobody will or can even copy installer files from one
iPhone or iPad to another to get them re-used with a different Apple ID.
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when
distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific Apple ID.
Which is irrelevant, since you can just download it again, if needed.
That *is* a difference with (free (as in no-cost)) Android apps and
many free Windows software. That's why I save Android APKs [1] and
Windows install packages, in case I want/need to install them on a new device. (Case in point: The *22 year old* Hamster news server which
brings you this article! :-))
simply a brainless anti-Apple know-nothing troll.
That is "open source", an entirely different thing. Plus "open source"or Family connection
is not always actually free, since in some cases you actually still have
to pay for it.
Additional power settings > Choose what the power button does >or (depending on your number of buttons)
Additional power settings > Choose what the power buttons do >
Change settings that are currently unavailable
On Mon, 7 Apr 2025 09:45:51 +1200, Your Name wrote :
simply a brainless anti-Apple know-nothing troll.
These are technical newsgroups... and this is a technical subject.
The adults will notice we're talking how iOS is different from all other operating systems, e.g., an app backup is essentially impossible on iOS.
And yet, the Apple trolls (like Your Name) hate that we're discussing this technical feature of iOS which - let's face it - is unique among systems.
Only Apple doesn't allow iOS users the common decency of an app backup.
The only thing Apple allows the poor iOS user to back up is the app data.
But not the app.
And that's bad.
So, why does this matter? When you do a restore on an apple
gadget (Iphone, Ipad, etc), it downloads the latest version from the
apple "store". And since it DOES save the app's data, that will put
things back exactly as they were.
Only exception is if you were using an old version, no longer offered on
the "store" ... then you're just fucked.
On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 17:39:59 -0500, Hank Rogers wrote :
So, why does this matter? When you do a restore on an apple
gadget (Iphone, Ipad, etc), it downloads the latest version from the
apple "store". And since it DOES save the app's data, that will put
things back exactly as they were.
Only exception is if you were using an old version, no longer offered on
the "store" ... then you're just fucked.
Why does it matter? Are you nuts? It's extremely important to back up apps.
Think about what Windows?Android/Linux users would say if you told them
it's impossible for them to back up their saved program installers.
Think about what Windows?Android/Linux users would say if you told them
it's impossible for them to back up their saved program installers.
Ok, I understand your point.
However, I don't do backups/restore on Android either.
I simply let Google Play reinstall everything in the
list.
This is what most people do.
I do make backups.
That is, I connect the phone to the Linux computer
(some how, the method varies) and copy every file in sight.
Some files refuse to be copied, though.
adb pull /system/etc/hosts .\hosts.txt[That should copy the hosts file over even if you're unrooted.]
And this allows me to do a data restore of some apps.
Applies specially to photos and maybe to WhatsApp.
But a true backup/restore strategy like I have on Windows or Linux?
Nope.
adb pull $(adb shell pm path com.app) .
adb backup -apk com.your.app.package -f mydata.ab
adb restore com.app.ab
About Android saving the APK.
I have never used that to reinstall an app.
adb shell pm list packages | findstr osmand (or use grep on Linux)package:net.osmand.plus
In fact, there are cleaning utilities that delete the old APKs to
make up free space.
In fact, there are cleaning utilities that delete the old APKs toNo they don't. Not unless you're rooted.
make up free space.
In fact, there are cleaning utilities that delete the old APKs toNo they don't. Not unless you're rooted.
make up free space.
AFAIK the old ES Explorer or ES Admin did. The app was removed from the store, they did bad and illegal things, but I still have some old
version in an old phone (decommissioned, no SIM).
On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 12:37:51 +0200, Arno Welzel wrote :
This is very bad manners.
Speaking of bad manners, the point of this offshoot is about good & bad. >>>
1. Only iOS *locks* every installer to a specific unique ID.
2. This is bad for two reasons, one of which is it prevents reuse.
Which is irrelevant for most cases, since installer files can not just
be copied from one iPhone to another anyway.
The main point is that only Apple locks every IPA to a specific user.
And that's bad.
On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 12:35:58 +0200, Arno Welzel wrote :
The *reason* you can't re-use Apple IPAs is Apple locks the downloaded
software to a specific unique Apple ID so that it can only be installed on >>> devices with that specific unique Apple ID.
Yes - so what? Nobody will or can even copy installer files from one
iPhone or iPad to another to get them re-used with a different Apple ID.
What we're all trying to do is learn how the various systems work.
The original question was what was *different* & whether it was good or
bad, where what's different with iOS is Apple locks every installer to you.
If you happen to have installed on your Android the last known good version of any given app, you can re-install that app on *billions* of Androids.
The point not being the sheer number but the fact it's unrestricted re-use. However... that same scenario won't work for iOS owners. And that's bad.
Even an iTunes "backup" of that last known good version of an app does not contain a re-usable IPA to that last known good version of that iOS app.
The app backup only contains garbage such as meta data & app data.
But the app backup (even with iTunes) does NOT contain the full ipa file.
The Apple user is always fucked by Apple.
Every other operating system allows the user to re-install the last known good version after a factory reset (or crash, or whatever)... except Apple.
On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 12:31:12 +0200, Arno Welzel wrote :
There is free open source software which does not cost money but when
distributed by the Apple App Store, it's locked to a specific Apple ID.
Which is irrelevant, since you can just download it again, if needed.
People on this newsgroup are supposed to understand that which they claim.
I don't think you yet understand that your statement is patently false.
Since these are technical newsgroups, it behooves you to understand iOS.
Let's take a simple example that has happened to all of us at some point.
a. Let's say you've got a free app on Windows, iOS and Android;
b. Let's say the "latest version" is not the "last known good version";
c. Let's say you've been diligent with the backups on all 3 platforms.
Sounds great so far, right?
Now... let's say something unforeseen happens & you do a factory reset.
Now what?
Please answer the question below.
Q: What happens on each operating system with respect to the re-install?
Choice A. You're fucked on iOS.
Choice B. You're fucked on iOS, but you're fine on Android.
Choice C. You're fucked on iOS, but you're fine on Windows.
Please choose any of the above which apply to that common situation.
You must choose at least one, where the best answer is choose all three.
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Marion, 2025-04-07 22:34:
[...]
When an IPA is installed on an iOS device, it's signed with a provisioning >>> profile that is tied to a specific Apple Developer account and a set of
authorized devices. For apps downloaded from the App Store, this process is >>> managed by Apple and linked to your Apple ID.
All apps, even those which might be considered "free & open source" suffer >>> this process, since every single app ever downloaded from Apple's App Store >>> restricts their usage to the Apple ID that originally downloaded them.
Well - in that case this is irrelevant, since free apps can be
downloaded again from the original source.
I have no beef in this (non-)discussion, but you can only download
again, if the "original source" still exists!
The main point is that only Apple locks every IPA to a specific user.
And that's bad.
Which does not change, that you can not copy installer files from one
iOS device to another anyway.
The original question was what was *different* & whether it was good or
bad, where what's different with iOS is Apple locks every installer to you.
Yes - and?
If you can not copy installer files anyway, what's the matter then if
they get bound to a specific AppleID?
If you happen to have installed on your Android the last known good version >> of any given app, you can re-install that app on *billions* of Androids.
Yes, *if* you have the APK files.
Google Play itself does not provide
the option to install older versions - you can only download the latest version of an app which available for your device.
And if your device is
too old some apps may even not be available any longer, because the publishers decided not to support older Android versions etc.
The point not being the sheer number but the fact it's unrestricted re-use. >> However... that same scenario won't work for iOS owners. And that's bad.
For iOS owners many other things don't work the same way.
If you don't like that, just don't use it. Problem solved.
Even an iTunes "backup" of that last known good version of an app does not >> contain a re-usable IPA to that last known good version of that iOS app.
Yes, the same as in Android. Android backups do not backup everything
and apps installer files will not be backed up at all, just the list
which app should be installed.
The app backup only contains garbage such as meta data & app data.
But the app backup (even with iTunes) does NOT contain the full ipa file.
The same applies to Android.
Every other operating system allows the user to re-install the last known
good version after a factory reset (or crash, or whatever)... except Apple.
Nope. Android does not allow to do this either if you do not manually
extract APK files. And even then you can not be sure of the APK file
works on another device because the publisher uses AAB for publishing.
Please choose any of the above which apply to that common situation.
You must choose at least one, where the best answer is choose all three.
All three are wrong or irrelevant.
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-09 17:35:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Marion, 2025-04-07 22:34:
[...]
When an IPA is installed on an iOS device, it's signed with a
provisioning profile that is tied to a specific Apple Developer
account and a set of authorized devices. For apps downloaded from
the App Store, this process is managed by Apple and linked to your
Apple ID.
All apps, even those which might be considered "free & open
source" suffer this process, since every single app ever
downloaded from Apple's App Store restricts their usage to the
Apple ID that originally downloaded them.
Well - in that case this is irrelevant, since free apps can be
downloaded again from the original source.
I have no beef in this (non-)discussion, but you can only download
again, if the "original source" still exists!
Which also applies to Android. So what?
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-09 17:35:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Marion, 2025-04-07 22:34:
[...]
When an IPA is installed on an iOS device, it's signed with a
provisioning profile that is tied to a specific Apple Developer
account and a set of authorized devices. For apps downloaded from
the App Store, this process is managed by Apple and linked to your
Apple ID.
All apps, even those which might be considered "free & open
source" suffer this process, since every single app ever
downloaded from Apple's App Store restricts their usage to the
Apple ID that originally downloaded them.
Well - in that case this is irrelevant, since free apps can be
downloaded again from the original source.
I have no beef in this (non-)discussion, but you can only download
again, if the "original source" still exists!
Which also applies to Android. So what?
Ah! You now resort to lying by omission? In the (big) part you 'conveniently' silently snipped, I specificall said (amongst others)
"That's why I save Android APKs ...".
On 2025-04-11, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-09 17:35:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Marion, 2025-04-07 22:34:
[...]
When an IPA is installed on an iOS device, it's signed with a
provisioning profile that is tied to a specific Apple Developer
account and a set of authorized devices. For apps downloaded from
the App Store, this process is managed by Apple and linked to your
Apple ID.
All apps, even those which might be considered "free & open
source" suffer this process, since every single app ever
downloaded from Apple's App Store restricts their usage to the
Apple ID that originally downloaded them.
Well - in that case this is irrelevant, since free apps can be
downloaded again from the original source.
I have no beef in this (non-)discussion, but you can only download
again, if the "original source" still exists!
Which also applies to Android. So what?
Ah! You now resort to lying by omission? In the (big) part you 'conveniently' silently snipped, I specificall said (amongst others) "That's why I save Android APKs ...".
I've been backing up my iOS app IPAs for years, and have every version
going back to around 2008 archived. Apparently what I am doing is
impossible or something. What have I been doing wrong all this time?
Marion, 2025-04-09 22:43:[...]
Even an iTunes "backup" of that last known good version of an app does not contain a re-usable IPA to that last known good version of that iOS app.
Yes, the same as in Android. Android backups do not backup everything
and apps installer files will not be backed up at all, just the list
which app should be installed.
Well - in that case this is irrelevant, since free apps can be
downloaded again from the original source.
you can only download
again, if the "original source" still exists!
Which also applies to Android. So what?
Ah! You now resort to lying by omission? In the (big) part you >>'conveniently' silently snipped, I specificall said (amongst others) >>"That's why I save Android APKs ...".
So in the iOS case,
if the original source does no longer exist,
you're out of luck, but in the Android case, you can install the app
from it's backed up APK.
Sometimes I use an old backed up apk even when the Play Store and/or Amazon
Appstore still has the app available because I like the old version better.
Course I have to turn off the automatic app updates and do them manually, a
bit of a PITA but then I've got lots of free time...
I've been backing up my iOS app IPAs for years, and have every version
going back to around 2008 archived. Apparently what I am doing is
impossible or something. What have I been doing wrong all this time?
You tell *them*! As I said, "I have no beef in this (non-)discussion,"
But I also thought that you could backup and restore iOS apps. At
least that's what You Guys (TM) have been telling us.
I don't know either way, because I don't have any iOS devices.
Also there are many other backup apps for Android, which can also backup/restore APKs.
How is it a "bit of a pita" when every APK you installed is always >>automatically saved to your Windows PC (as Android is mounted as a drive)?
<https://i.postimg.cc/hjkVFyqJ/scrcpy07.jpg> Android mnt as drive letter
I think you misunderstood me. Let me give an example. I'm now posting using
an Amazon Fire HD10 tablet. It came with the Amazon Appstore. I have since
installed Google stuff on it and thus it also has the Play Store. Both
stores came set to automatically update apps.
So when I install an old preferred apk version of a still available (in the
stores) app on this tablet it wouldn't stay old long because one of the
stores would automatically update it to the current version.
So I've turned off auto-updating in both stores. The PITA is that I now have
to periodically check both stores and manually update the other apps that
do need updates...
On Fri, 11 Apr 2025 09:36:39 +0200, Arno Welzel wrote :[...]
Yes, *if* you have the APK files.
Again I appreciate that you explain details that both of us are aware of,
but which the vast majority of people out there probably do not know.
We both agree that Google began requiring all new apps to be published
using the Android App Bundle (AAB) format on August 1, 2021.
I must disagree with your attitude that you feel there's no reason to understand anything that you simply happen to not like how it works.
Your admonition that if you don't like something, then you have no right to explain how that something works, is not an attitude that I share with you.
Yes, the same as in Android. Android backups do not backup everything
and apps installer files will not be backed up at all, just the list
which app should be installed.
While I understand what you claimed, most people will believe your words as stated to mean more than what you meant them to mean, so that's a problem.
The fact is Android already automatically saves every APK you install.
That base.apk is *always* there. All you have to do is copy it to the PC.
@echo off
echo Getting list of installed packages...
adb shell pm list packages -f > packages.txt
The app backup only contains garbage such as meta data & app data.The same applies to Android.
But the app backup (even with iTunes) does NOT contain the full ipa file. >>
That statement is not correct since the Android base apk is always there.
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Marion, 2025-04-09 22:43:[...]
Even an iTunes "backup" of that last known good version of an app does not >>> contain a re-usable IPA to that last known good version of that iOS app.
Yes, the same as in Android. Android backups do not backup everything
and apps installer files will not be backed up at all, just the list
which app should be installed.
That depends on which backup method is used. For the 'built-in' Backup
by Google One method, you're correct. But for example Samsung's Smart
Switch program, can/does backup and restore APKs.
On 11 Apr 2025 17:39:23 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote :
Also there are many other backup apps for Android, which can also
backup/restore APKs.
Frank is correct in that there are *many* installer backup mechanisms for every common consumer operating system other than for Apple's iOS OS.
What's unique about iOS is that it's *impossible* to back up the IPA.
And that's bad.
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-11 19:39:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Marion, 2025-04-09 22:43:[...]
Even an iTunes "backup" of that last known good version of an app does notYes, the same as in Android. Android backups do not backup everything
contain a re-usable IPA to that last known good version of that iOS app. >>
and apps installer files will not be backed up at all, just the list
which app should be installed.
That depends on which backup method is used. For the 'built-in' Backup
by Google One method, you're correct. But for example Samsung's Smart Switch program, can/does backup and restore APKs.
Theat's irrelevant. Not everybody uses Samsung devices. So we MUST ONLY
talk about the default backup provided by Android itself which is also implemented by LineageOS BTW.
On 11 Apr 2025 17:32:43 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote :
I've been backing up my iOS app IPAs for years, and have every
version going back to around 2008 archived. Apparently what I am
doing is impossible or something. What have I been doing wrong all
this time?
You tell *them*! As I said, "I have no beef in this
(non-)discussion,"
But I also thought that you could backup and restore iOS apps. At
least that's what You Guys (TM) have been telling us.
I don't know either way, because I don't have any iOS devices.
Frank,
Please don't be bamboozled by the deceitful Apple troll's lies.
I do have iOS devices, Frank. Plenty. And I know how iTunes works. So
does Jolly Roger. He's lying.
C'mon Jolly Roger. Tell us that you installed the current Windows
iTunes 12.13.7.1 and then you did a full backup & you were able to
save the IPA.
C'mon Jolly Roger. Tell us that you installed the current Windows
iTunes 12.13.7.1 and then you did a full backup & you were able to
save the IPA.
I've explained in detail how to back up IPA files of the apps you've installed right here in these newsgroups, and clearly you ignored it
then. You're the *last* person I'm going to repeat myself to. Fuck off
if you can't be bothered to read what I already told you. Your trolls
are ultra-weak which is blatantly obvious to anyone who knows better.
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:[...]
Theat's irrelevant. Not everybody uses Samsung devices. So we MUST ONLY
talk about the default backup provided by Android itself which is also
implemented by LineageOS BTW.
Nope, we must not. As I said, and you again 'conveniently' dishonestly snipped:
<unsnip>
Also there are many other backup apps for Android, which can also backup/restore APKs.
</unsnip>
That's the beauty about a platform like Android, choice.
As this is the second time you try to make your point by lying by omission, it's EOD.
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
[...]That's the beauty about a platform like Android, choice.
Sure - but "using a backup app" is not using what Android itself is providing.
Google also provides a backup feature in Android itself which also
allows to transfer data from one device to another when you switch
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
That's the beauty about a platform like Android, choice.
Sure - but "using a backup app" is not using what Android itself is providing.
Google also provides a backup feature in Android itself which also[...]
allows to transfer data from one device to another when you switch
In addition - see here: <https://support.google.com/android/answer/2819582?hl=en>
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the backup to another device using USB and so on.
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:[...]
Theat's irrelevant. Not everybody uses Samsung devices. So we MUST ONLY
talk about the default backup provided by Android itself which is also
implemented by LineageOS BTW.
Nope, we must not. As I said, and you again 'conveniently' dishonestly
snipped:
<unsnip>
Also there are many other backup apps for Android, which can also
backup/restore APKs.
</unsnip>
That's irrelevant in the context "what does the operating system provide".
That's the beauty about a platform like Android, choice.
Sure - but "using a backup app" is not using what Android itself is providing.
Google also provides a backup feature in Android itself which also
allows to transfer data from one device to another when you switch
devices. But as I also explained: APK files are not included, because
not every APK file will work on every device, since APK files are device specific packages and not universal installers. Most of the time it
works, but there is no guarantee for it and it is much safer to
reinstall apps on a new device by downloading it again, so always the
correct version will be used.
As this is the second time you try to make your point by lying by
omission, it's EOD.
I did not try to make anything. I just explained, how ANDROID ITSELF works.
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB.
The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
I remember once that I did a factory reset on an old phone, intending to install the same things for another account. I could not install again
some of the apps because the Android version was old, and they no longer
had those apps in G Play.
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 21:56:27 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :
I remember once that I did a factory reset on an old phone, intending to
install the same things for another account. I could not install again
some of the apps because the Android version was old, and they no longer
had those apps in G Play.
I can concur with Carlos, and pretty much everyone in the world, in that we've all, at times, reset a PC or mobile device w/o having EVERYTHING
backed up prior. We've learned from all those mistakes over time.
For example, on Windows, I save every install where it belongs.
(e.g., c:\installers\shells\android\adb)
I then install each & every program where it belongs.
(e.g., c:\apps\shells\android\adb)
And of course, I add a shortcut to the taskbar menu where it belongs.
(e.g., menus > shells > android > adb.lnk
And, for some programs, I keep data where it belongs, but that's harder.
(e.g., c:\data\shells\android\adb)
To back up the installers is as simply as copying "installers".
It's the same with most operating systems not designed by Apple.
With Android, the google play store replacement app saves the installer.
Even Android saves the installer (so it's actually auto-saved twice).
That allows plenty of backup & restore strategies for the user.
The main point of this offshoot though is that if you *want* to back up
your Android APKs, you can (and in fact, it's mostly done already for you).
Same with Linux & Windows.
But on iOS, you can't.
And that's bad.
On 2025-04-14 17:26, Marion wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 21:56:27 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote :
I remember once that I did a factory reset on an old phone, intending to >>> install the same things for another account. I could not install again
some of the apps because the Android version was old, and they no longer >>> had those apps in G Play.
I can concur with Carlos, and pretty much everyone in the world, in that
we've all, at times, reset a PC or mobile device w/o having EVERYTHING
backed up prior. We've learned from all those mistakes over time.
For example, on Windows, I save every install where it belongs.
� (e.g., c:\installers\shells\android\adb)
I then install each & every program where it belongs.
� (e.g., c:\apps\shells\android\adb)
And of course, I add a shortcut to the taskbar menu where it belongs.
� (e.g., menus > shells > android > adb.lnk
And, for some programs, I keep data where it belongs, but that's harder.
� (e.g., c:\data\shells\android\adb)
To back up the installers is as simply as copying "installers".
It's the same with most operating systems not designed by Apple.
With Android, the google play store replacement app saves the installer.
Even Android saves the installer (so it's actually auto-saved twice).
That allows plenty of backup & restore strategies for the user.
The main point of this offshoot though is that if you *want* to back up
your Android APKs, you can (and in fact, it's mostly done already for
you).
Same with Linux & Windows.
But on iOS, you can't.
And that's bad.
And you never once mention the importance of backing up one's DATA.
Apps can be (usually) be installed from the same source you got them in
the first place, but the data you create, accumulate and store in those
apps can't be recovered from anywhere.
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience >> by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB. The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup
app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Using my Motorola phone I can transfer from old phone to new phone most things. But not to disk. And I don't remember if all data is
transferred. Photos, maps...
I'm surprised you didn't know this!
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as >>>> well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience >>>> by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the >>>> backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB. >>> The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup
app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
I have no real suggestion/solution, other than adb (and MTP).
An (non-Google) Android app cannot provide a solution, because on a non-rooted phone, it can't backup the /Internal storage/Android folders (data, obb?, others?), which contains the settings and data of all the
apps.
Because I have a Samsung phone, I could use the Samsung Smart Switch program on Windows, but that is not flexible enough for backing up what
you want and not backing up what you don't want. It is oriented in
categories instead of in folders and for some categories, it's all or nothing.
Using my Motorola phone I can transfer from old phone to new phone most
things. But not to disk. And I don't remember if all data is
transferred. Photos, maps...
You could try the 'Smart Switch Mobile' [1] [2] Android app. For
transfer to another device, it runs on any (i.e. also non-Samsung)
device. I don't know if it then can also make backup (to cloud, SD-card
or USB-stick). The reference [2] implies it can. (I do no longer have a recent/working non-Samsung device to try.)
Same for the Smart Switch PC program for Windows [2]. Probably only
works if the source is a Samsung device (reference [2] only works if you specify 'GALAXY'), but you can try.
For a non-automated backup you can use MTP. With MTP you *can* access
the /Internal storage/Android folders. For example in Windows File
Explorer, this accesses the folder which contains the OsmAnd+ maps:
This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage\Android\data\net.osmand.plus\files
But 'This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage' is only accessible
in File Explorer, it's not part of the normal file system, nor
accessible as a Network Share, so you can't use normal copy or backup utilities. (Perhaps in Windows PowerShell one can 'program'/control File Explorer? No idea.)
The MTP method should also work in Linux (and on macOS? and on
ChromeOS?).
FWIW, because of these limitations, I no longer bother with full
Android backup. I only backup the folders which *are* accessible on a non-rooted device.
For all my apps, at least the important ones, I investigate if I can recover/recreate the settings or/and data, if I lose them. For example
in OsmAnd+ you can export settings, etc, and backup those and all maps
can be reloaded. For apps which have complicated settings, which can not
be exported/backed-up, I document which settings I have changed. Some
apps have their own backup methods (for example WhatsApp). Some apps
only need account credentials. Etc. etc.. Of course this whole mechanism
is documented in a file which *is* backed up! :-)
Sofar, in nearly 12 years, I haven't had any major mishaps, so I'll continue to use my "Can not backup, so prepare to recover recreate.'
method.
Hope this helps.--
[1]
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sec.android.easyMover>
[2]
<https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/smart-switch/>
See 'How to transfer' -> GALAXY -> Backup and restore from PC or Mac -> Windows
For using the Smart Switch Mobile Android app to *backup* (not
transfer), see 'Other Android' -> 'Backup and restore from external
storage'
On Mon, 14 Apr 2025 21:22:45 -0500, Hank Rogers wrote :
I'm surprised you didn't know this!
EDIT: (There's a plan for backing up data in the 2nd half of this missive.)
It's no longer shocking what Alan Baker will insist can't be, when everyone but Alan Baker knows it (see a perfect example in my own header above).
Alan Baker has owned a bimmer for years and yet disputed what they're commonly called in technical circles; and Alan Baker claims to 'teach
racing' and yet clearly has never studied the physics involved in
navigating differently various basic curves.
Alan Baker insists Apple has never done wrong (simply because, to him,
paying a half a billion dollars so that they don't have to admit guilt is proof that Apple cannot do wrong because Apple has too much money to do
so).
Even the fact that Apple was charged with crimes and that Apple paid the French prosecutor for those crimes, means, to Alan, that it never happened.
Moving on ... we're here to improve our technical knowledge, where I have (what I think is) sage advice for how to plan on backing up all your data.have to
As for the technical aspect of backing up data, I've been doing that for as many decades as the rest of you have, starting back in the 1960's on
magtape and punched cards (sorry, I never learned how to use punched tape).
It's my opinion, based on experience, that on Linux/Windows, you
plan for your data backup the day you set up your system. This is why I
have a directory for data on Windows that exactly mirrors the app dir.
installers: C:\software\editors\text\gvim\.
apps: C:\apps\editors\text\gvim\.
Taskbar menu: menu > editors > text > gvim.lnk
data: C:\data\editors\text\gvim\. (e.g., tmp files & settings)
Your plan banks on being able to set the data directory of each program at the time you install that program. Fat chance getting Adobe products to respect that plan; but there are programs out there which allow you to set the data directory (e.g., OSMAnd~ on Android allows you a map directory).
However, executing the strategic plan of backing up data is sort of like
what happens during war the moment there is contact with the enemy.
The enemy gets a vote.
Hence, no plan survives intact after contact with the enemy.
It's the same with backing up your data.
The only plan that works all the time is to plan how you're going to back
up your system the day you set up that system - and then - you modify that plan upon contact with each app or program.
Consider the program installation your first contact with the enemy.
And change the plan accordingly - since the program gets a vote.
Actions speak louder than words, little boy. And you always side with
Arlen - religiously (you even forgave him for impersonating you lol).
I will agree with anyone who speaks the truth or makes a rational
statement, even you on occasion. But I learned my lesson the last time
I agreed with you when I realized you were lying.
Then use the far simpler method of connecting to your Windows machine via
the Files app. Make sure you have Sharing enabled in Windows first. Simple >> and new apps required.
Thanks, but I use Linux, and I already stated I'm fine with just using
ifuse and a usb cable. Or KDE Connect.
On Tue, 15 Apr 2025 17:26:01 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman wrote :
Actions speak louder than words, little boy. And you always side with
Arlen - religiously (you even forgave him for impersonating you lol).
I will agree with anyone who speaks the truth or makes a rational
statement, even you on occasion. But I learned my lesson the last time
I agreed with you when I realized you were lying.
Hi badgolferman,
Logic. And sense. Equals reason.
Like you, and like any logically sensible adult, I will agree with anyone
who makes a claim that is logically and sensibly sound, and you know that.
I will even openly & willingly apologize publicly if I say something that turns out to be incorrect - and you know that also.
These Apple trolls? Hmmm.... they never do either.
Their only goal is to defend Apple's honor... to the death. No matter what.
With respect to the technical problem of copying files off of iOS to any other platform without using the cloud, the Apple trolls claim that iTunes can do it and that SMB can do it.
And yet, Apple publicly disavows any support whatsoever of Linux.
And Android.
So how do these Apple trolls copy files from iOS to Android?
(HINT: They don't. They lied.)
When the Apple trolls claim to copy from iOS to Android using the Files SMB capability, they're lying because it's not possible (to my knowledge).
On 2025-04-15 15:18, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
For a non-automated backup you can use MTP. With MTP you *can* access the /Internal storage/Android folders. For example in Windows File Explorer, this accesses the folder which contains the OsmAnd+ maps:
MTP is what I do. Sometimes I have used a WiFi file server app on the
phone instead. Sometimes I found that one can see files the other
doesn't, but I don't remember which.
This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage\Android\data\net.osmand.plus\files
But 'This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage' is only accessible
in File Explorer, it's not part of the normal file system, nor
accessible as a Network Share, so you can't use normal copy or backup utilities. (Perhaps in Windows PowerShell one can 'program'/control File Explorer? No idea.)
In Linux we can access the filesystem. Once I tell the equivalent of the file explorer to access the phone, then it is also accessible under:
/run/user/1000/gvfs/mtp:host=motorola_moto_g52_SOME_LETTERS
for any app. This is using with a gtk desktop, with KDE it is somewhere else.
Then I can use rsync and copy links to the files in the previous backup.
On Tue, 15 Apr 2025 17:26:01 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman wrote :
Actions speak louder than words, little boy. And you always side with >>>Arlen - religiously (you even forgave him for impersonating you lol).
I will agree with anyone who speaks the truth or makes a rational
statement, even you on occasion. But I learned my lesson the last
time I agreed with you when I realized you were lying.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-04-15 15:18, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
For a non-automated backup you can use MTP. With MTP you *can* access >>> the /Internal storage/Android folders. For example in Windows File
Explorer, this accesses the folder which contains the OsmAnd+ maps:
MTP is what I do. Sometimes I have used a WiFi file server app on the
phone instead. Sometimes I found that one can see files the other
doesn't, but I don't remember which.
Yes, I have also found such servers, but none for recent Android
versions (10 and higher), which can access the /Internal storage/Android folders.
This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage\Android\data\net.osmand.plus\files
But 'This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage' is only accessible >>> in File Explorer, it's not part of the normal file system, nor
accessible as a Network Share, so you can't use normal copy or backup
utilities. (Perhaps in Windows PowerShell one can 'program'/control File >>> Explorer? No idea.)
In Linux we can access the filesystem. Once I tell the equivalent of the
file explorer to access the phone, then it is also accessible under:
/run/user/1000/gvfs/mtp:host=motorola_moto_g52_SOME_LETTERS
for any app. This is using with a gtk desktop, with KDE it is somewhere
else.
Then I can use rsync and copy links to the files in the previous backup.
Could you give an example (Linux) 'cp' command which shows what the
source and destination paths look like?
In Windows you can't specify a source path for a 'copy', etc., because such a path does not exist for MTP, so - being an old Unix/UNIX and
current GNU user - I am interested what it looks like on Linux (for
MTP).
Or is the source just a path relative to /run/user/1000/gvfs/mtp?
[...]
On 2025-04-15 20:27, Frank Slootweg wrote:
In Windows you can't specify a source path for a 'copy', etc., because >> such a path does not exist for MTP, so - being an old Unix/UNIX and
current GNU user - I am interested what it looks like on Linux (for
MTP).
Or is the source just a path relative to /run/user/1000/gvfs/mtp?
[...]
It is an emulation layer. MTP does not support every operation a true filesystem does.
This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage\Android\data\net.osmand.plus\files
But 'This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage' is only accessible
in File Explorer, it's not part of the normal file system, nor
accessible as a Network Share, so you can't use normal copy or backup utilities. (Perhaps in Windows PowerShell one can 'program'/control File Explorer? No idea.)
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience >>> by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB.
The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup
app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as >>>> well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience >>>> by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the >>>> backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB. >>> The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd' commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac??
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as >>>> well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough
experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the >>>> backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB. >>> The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup
app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd'
commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac??
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as >>>>> well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience >>>>> by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the >>>>> backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The >>>> Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB. >>>> The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or >>>> USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd' commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac??
On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can
gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu PPC DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be at-rest). I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into
the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on the computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface it has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for tricks like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting
to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and
you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment.
For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not expect
a simple trick to work in such a case.
Paul
On 2025-04-16 05:28, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other
methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough
experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to
transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The >>>>> Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no >>>>> ADB.
The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or >>>>> USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup
app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd'
commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac??
On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can
gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu PPC
DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be at-
rest).
I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into
the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on the
computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface it
has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for tricks
like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting
to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and
you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment.
For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not expect
a simple trick to work in such a case.
Paul
Or you could just use the "dd" command built into the Unix sub-system of every Mac since Mac OS X was first released in 2001...
On 2025-04-16 05:28, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as >>>>>> well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience >>>>>> by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the >>>>>> backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The >>>>> Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB. >>>>> The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or >>>>> USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd' commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac??
On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can
gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu PPC
DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be at-rest). >> I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into
the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on the computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface it has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for tricks like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting
to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and
you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment.
For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not expect
a simple trick to work in such a case.
Paul
Or you could just use the "dd" command built into the Unix sub-system of every Mac since Mac OS X was first released in 2001...
On 2025-04-16 22:26, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 05:28, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other
methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough
experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to
transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The >>>>>> Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but
no ADB.
The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi- >>>>>> Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full
backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd'
commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations. >>>>
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac??
On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can
gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu
PPC
DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be
at- rest).
I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into
the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on the
computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface it
has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for tricks
like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting
to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and
you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment.
For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not expect
a simple trick to work in such a case.
Paul
Or you could just use the "dd" command built into the Unix sub-system
of every Mac since Mac OS X was first released in 2001...
Not on a phone.
On 2025-04-16 14:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-16 22:26, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 05:28, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other
methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough >>>>>>>> experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to
transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup >>>>>>> ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but >>>>>>> no ADB.
The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi- >>>>>>> Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full
backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd'
commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux
installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac?? >>>>
gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the
Ubuntu PPC
DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be
at- rest).
I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into >>>> the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on
the computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface it
has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for tricks
like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting >>>> to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and
you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment. >>>> For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not expect >>>> a simple trick to work in such a case.
Paul
Or you could just use the "dd" command built into the Unix sub-system
of every Mac since Mac OS X was first released in 2001...
Not on a phone.
You seem to be a little hard of reading:
"Is there a similar commandline command [] or Apple Mac??"
"On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu PPC DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to
transfer out the disk (which would be at- rest)."
But of those make direct reference to a Mac.
Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 14:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-16 22:26, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 05:28, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other >>>>>>>>> methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough >>>>>>>>> experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to
transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
   The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup >>>>>>>> ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but >>>>>>>> no ADB.
The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by >>>>>>>> Wi- Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full
backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd'
commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux
installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac?? >>>>>
gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the
Ubuntu PPC
DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be
at- rest).
I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into >>>>> the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on
the computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface
it has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for
tricks like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting >>>>> to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and
you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment. >>>>> For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not
expect
a simple trick to work in such a case.
   Paul
Or you could just use the "dd" command built into the Unix sub-
system of every Mac since Mac OS X was first released in 2001...
Not on a phone.
You seem to be a little hard of reading:
"Is there a similar commandline command [] or Apple Mac??"
"On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu PPC DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to
transfer out the disk (which would be at- rest)."
But of those make direct reference to a Mac.
Did you read this before you posted it? Most of what you've written
aren't even sentences.
On Wed, 4/16/2025 4:26 PM, Alan wrote:So make a second boot drive for the Mac.
On 2025-04-16 05:28, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as >>>>>>> well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the >>>>>>> backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB. >>>>>> The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or >>>>>> USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd' commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac??
On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can
gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu PPC >>> DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be at-rest).
I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into
the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on the computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface it has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for tricks like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting
to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and
you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment.
For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not expect
a simple trick to work in such a case.
Paul
Or you could just use the "dd" command built into the Unix sub-system of every Mac since Mac OS X was first released in 2001...
But not make a copy of the disk while it is "hot".
The MacG4 Quad Nostril does not have VSS and shadow copy for hot backups.
On 2025-04-16 14:24, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 4:26 PM, Alan wrote:So make a second boot drive for the Mac.
On 2025-04-16 05:28, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB.
The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or >>>>>>> USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd' commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac?? >>>>
gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu PPC >>>> DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be at-rest).
I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into >>>> the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on the computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface it has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for tricks like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting >>>> to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and
you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment. >>>> For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not expect >>>> a simple trick to work in such a case.
Paul
Or you could just use the "dd" command built into the Unix sub-system of every Mac since Mac OS X was first released in 2001...
But not make a copy of the disk while it is "hot".
The MacG4 Quad Nostril does not have VSS and shadow copy for hot backups.
On Wed, 4/16/2025 9:52 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 14:24, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 4:26 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 05:28, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB.
The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or >>>>>>>> USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd' commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac?? >>>>>
gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu PPC >>>>> DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be at-rest).
I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into >>>>> the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on the computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface it has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for tricks like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting >>>>> to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and
you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment. >>>>> For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not expect >>>>> a simple trick to work in such a case.
Paul
Or you could just use the "dd" command built into the Unix sub-system of every Mac since Mac OS X was first released in 2001...
But not make a copy of the disk while it is "hot".
The MacG4 Quad Nostril does not have VSS and shadow copy for hot backups. >> So make a second boot drive for the Mac.
I stopped opening up the G4 after a while. It required sitting
on my kitchen floor and "cradling the scissor case" when opening it.
That's to avoid stressing the cables in it.
On Wed, 4/16/2025 9:52 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 14:24, Paul wrote:
This is one of the reasons, in the current computer room, *the* most popular computer, is the one with a flat door panel with a handle on it. I used to have
computer cases, where the silly drives used to slide into front mount
tray holes (it would take like ten minutes to change a drive),
but the machine with the nice door, the trays face the user
and are immediately accessible. I have "enjoyed the hell" out of the
two of those I own. The trays for the disks are steel, so you don't have
to worry about the competitor cases that use plastic trays. That's
the Antec Sonata case. It's amazing, what a few convenience features
makes to your opinion of a thing.
On 2025-04-16 22:15, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 9:52 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 14:24, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 4:26 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 05:28, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 6:53 AM, Daniel70 wrote:
On 15/04/2025 6:01 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:On computing devices that support booting from a second OS, you can >>>>>> gain "dd" access from the second OS. On my MacG4, I booted the Ubuntu PPC
On 2025-04-14 17:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
Arno Welzel, 2025-04-14 13:18:
Frank Slootweg, 2025-04-13 15:57:[...]
Yes, I agree, that Android has the flexibility to user other methods as
well, like backup apps, ADB and so on - but this needs enough experience
by the user like how to set up ADB on a computer or how to transfer the
backup to another device using USB and so on.
The methods I mentioned do not require the user to setup ADB. The
Smart Switch Android-to-Windows backup does use a USB-cable, but no ADB.
The Smart Switch Android app can transfer to another phone by Wi-Fi or
USB and can backup to cloud, SD-card or USB-stick.
That's a Samsung app, I understand. What about a generic full backup app, non adb? For any operating system, not Windows only?
Don't know about a Samsung App but, in Linux, I can use a 'dd' commandline command to back up both my Windows and Linux installations.
Is there a similar commandline command for Android and/or Apple Mac?? >>>>>>
DVD, and used Ubuntu "dd" to transfer out the disk (which would be at-rest).
I used a command line FTP session, and you can mix shell commands into >>>>>> the ftp commands -- dd can be piped into a (binary) "put". And on the computer
I did that on, the GbE at 112MB/sec, that's the fastest interface it has got.
But something like a phone, there are fewer opportunities for tricks like that.
Rooting the phone, if you can manage it, is as close as you're getting >>>>>> to a good time.
On at least one phone, the NAND is hidden underneath something, and >>>>>> you can't cable up and read-out the NAND chip with external equipment. >>>>>> For some of the devices, it's pretty well secured. You would not expect >>>>>> a simple trick to work in such a case.
Paul
Or you could just use the "dd" command built into the Unix sub-system of every Mac since Mac OS X was first released in 2001...
But not make a copy of the disk while it is "hot".
The MacG4 Quad Nostril does not have VSS and shadow copy for hot backups. >>> So make a second boot drive for the Mac.
I stopped opening up the G4 after a while. It required sitting
on my kitchen floor and "cradling the scissor case" when opening it.
That's to avoid stressing the cables in it.
And you've never heard of external drives?
We're talking about a special purpose boot drive you'd only use to do your dd backup.
On 2025-04-17 07:15, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 9:52 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 14:24, Paul wrote:
This is one of the reasons, in the current computer room, *the* most popular >> computer, is the one with a flat door panel with a handle on it. I used to have
computer cases, where the silly drives used to slide into front mount
tray holes (it would take like ten minutes to change a drive),
but the machine with the nice door, the trays face the user
and are immediately accessible. I have "enjoyed the hell" out of the
two of those I own. The trays for the disks are steel, so you don't have
to worry about the competitor cases that use plastic trays. That's
the Antec Sonata case. It's amazing, what a few convenience features
makes to your opinion of a thing.
I have the Antec P101. Way too big, I can not figure out the sizes when shopping on a web page like Amazon. Of course I can see the specs, but then I'm surprised when I actually have it on my hands. It is a pleasure to work inside, but I had to modify the computer rack to hold it.
On Thu, 4/17/2025 5:08 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-04-17 07:15, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 4/16/2025 9:52 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-04-16 14:24, Paul wrote:
This is one of the reasons, in the current computer room, *the* most popular
computer, is the one with a flat door panel with a handle on it. I used to have
computer cases, where the silly drives used to slide into front mount
tray holes (it would take like ten minutes to change a drive),
but the machine with the nice door, the trays face the user
and are immediately accessible. I have "enjoyed the hell" out of the
two of those I own. The trays for the disks are steel, so you don't have >>> to worry about the competitor cases that use plastic trays. That's
the Antec Sonata case. It's amazing, what a few convenience features
makes to your opinion of a thing.
I have the Antec P101. Way too big, I can not figure out the sizes when shopping on a web page like Amazon. Of course I can see the specs, but then I'm surprised when I actually have it on my hands. It is a pleasure to work inside, but I had to modify the computer rack to hold it.
Dimensions 527x232x506mm (DWH) EATX
20.7 9.1 19.9
That's about the same size as the one I got (Phanteks).
They don't have to get too large, before
they're hard to cool. I've blocked some
of the vents in mine, to try to get more
air velocity in other places, but it's
really a losing battle. It's got five fans
in it at the moment.
On 15 Apr 2025 13:18:40 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote :
This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage\Android\data\net.osmand.plus\files
But 'This PC\Frank's Galaxy A51\Internal storage' is only accessible
in File Explorer, it's not part of the normal file system, nor
accessible as a Network Share, so you can't use normal copy or backup utilities. (Perhaps in Windows PowerShell one can 'program'/control File Explorer? No idea.)
I will agree with anyone who says anything logically sensible, where I
agree with Frank that there must be a DIY backup mechanism to Windows.
On the one topic of the paradoxical observation that both Frank Slootweg
and I have experienced of what can be "seen" by the PC vs the phone...
<https://i.postimg.cc/1zrmSmQc/davroot.jpg> Windows can see Android root!
I also have been surprised when the PC can see *far* more of the Android
file system than the (non rooted) Android device itself can see.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Zngy0SGT/filesys03.jpg> Look at /etc/resolv.conf
Sure, we all know ADB can back up the system /etc/hosts file but even
without ADB, I can read (and write) to far more of the Android file system from the PC than from the phone itself. From the Windows command line!
<https://i.postimg.cc/nzFmPTKt/filesys04.jpg> cmd line access to /etc
For example, when I mount the Android as a Windows drive letter, I can read "almost" the entire system (not all of it - but a lot more than you'd expect). And I can write to some of the system filesys too I think.
<https://i.postimg.cc/PJF1ZZwn/filesys05.jpg> Look at the dnsproxy file
In summary, given my observation that when mounting an Android filesystem
as a drive letter on Windows that you can see far more than you'd expect to see, one possible backup mechanism might be to use a Windows copy script.
<https://i.postimg.cc/2SxM8V16/rootfilesystem.jpg> Windows root access!
| Sysop: | DaiTengu |
|---|---|
| Location: | Appleton, WI |
| Users: | 1,030 |
| Nodes: | 10 (0 / 10) |
| Uptime: | 99:18:14 |
| Calls: | 13,354 |
| Calls today: | 3 |
| Files: | 186,574 |
| D/L today: |
26,230 files (7,428M bytes) |
| Messages: | 3,359,549 |
