• Re: More on wifi range - Pi PICO W Oil level sensor

    From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc on Thu Dec 25 03:23:15 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On 24/12/2025 23:17, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 20:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    With Gigahertz, as with Heffalumps, you never know...

    Some of us do know.

    Some of us have worked with RF.
    --
    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

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  • From Robert Riches@spamtrap42@jacob21819.net to comp.sys.raspberry-pi on Thu Dec 25 03:25:39 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On 2025-12-24, mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
    On 11/12/2025 21:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    Home made with a box of Pringles. just google for "pringles wifi antenna".

    Also Google cutoff frequency and see that the Pringle tube is too small
    in diameter to be effective at 2.4GHz.

    Of course, designs on the internet do not have to follow the laws of physics! :-)

    If you need a different diameter and know what diameter you need,
    any decent hardware store or home improvement big-box store in
    the US and perhaps elsewhere will have a wide assortment of sizes
    of PVC, ABS, and metal pipes and round conduits. Some adhesive
    and copper foil would seem likely to be useful for making the
    plastic types useable.
    --
    Robert Riches
    spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
    (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to comp.sys.raspberry-pi on Thu Dec 25 03:34:30 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On 25/12/2025 03:25, Robert Riches wrote:
    On 2025-12-24, mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
    On 11/12/2025 21:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    Home made with a box of Pringles. just google for "pringles wifi antenna". >>
    Also Google cutoff frequency and see that the Pringle tube is too small
    in diameter to be effective at 2.4GHz.

    Of course, designs on the internet do not have to follow the laws of
    physics! :-)

    If you need a different diameter and know what diameter you need,
    any decent hardware store or home improvement big-box store in
    the US and perhaps elsewhere will have a wide assortment of sizes
    of PVC, ABS, and metal pipes and round conduits. Some adhesive
    and copper foil would seem likely to be useful for making the
    plastic types useable.

    If I felt that a design of any sort could be connected to a Pi Pico W I
    would 3D print it.
    But in the end the simpler approach was to create a wifi point higher up.

    Signal strength varies wildly, but enough transmissions get through...
    --
    "Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
    higher education positively fortifies it."

    - Stephen Vizinczey


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  • From rbowman@bowman@montana.com to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc on Thu Dec 25 07:32:08 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On Thu, 25 Dec 2025 03:23:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    On 24/12/2025 23:17, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 20:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    With Gigahertz, as with Heffalumps, you never know...

    Some of us do know.

    Some of us have worked with RF.

    That was my first real job -- 15 kw of it at around 100 MHz. Why is that fluorescent tube lighting with nothing attached to it?
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  • From Kerr-Mudd, John@admin@127.0.0.1 to comp.sys.raspberry-pi on Thu Dec 25 10:43:18 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On Thu, 25 Dec 2025 03:34:30 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 25/12/2025 03:25, Robert Riches wrote:
    On 2025-12-24, mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
    On 11/12/2025 21:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    Home made with a box of Pringles. just google for "pringles wifi antenna".

    Also Google cutoff frequency and see that the Pringle tube is too small
    in diameter to be effective at 2.4GHz.

    Of course, designs on the internet do not have to follow the laws of
    physics! :-)

    If you need a different diameter and know what diameter you need,
    any decent hardware store or home improvement big-box store in
    the US and perhaps elsewhere will have a wide assortment of sizes
    of PVC, ABS, and metal pipes and round conduits. Some adhesive
    and copper foil would seem likely to be useful for making the
    plastic types useable.

    If I felt that a design of any sort could be connected to a Pi Pico W I would 3D print it.
    But in the end the simpler approach was to create a wifi point higher up.

    Signal strength varies wildly, but enough transmissions get through...



    But what do I do with all these spare Pringle tubes:-?
    --
    Bah, and indeed Humbug.
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to comp.sys.raspberry-pi on Thu Dec 25 11:43:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On 25/12/2025 10:43, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

    But what do I do with all these spare Pringle tubes:-?


    Tell them to marry Meghan Markle and write a whiny book
    --
    "It was a lot more fun being 20 in the 70's that it is being 70 in the 20's" Joew Walsh

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  • From rbowman@bowman@montana.com to comp.sys.raspberry-pi on Thu Dec 25 18:44:19 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On Thu, 25 Dec 2025 10:43:18 +0000, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

    But what do I do with all these spare Pringle tubes:-?

    Build a Hamster Habitat.

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  • From Carlos E.R.@robin_listas@es.invalid to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc on Sat Dec 27 21:51:56 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On 2025-12-24 15:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 14:04, John R Walliker wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 12:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 07:58, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 11/12/2025 21:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    Home made with a box of Pringles. just google for "pringles wifi
    antenna".

    Also Google cutoff frequency and see that the Pringle tube is too
    small in diameter to be effective at 2.4GHz.

    Assuming that is a relevant issue.

    Shouting down a pipe whose diameter is way less than the wavlength of
    voice frequencies, still works....

    Of course, designs on the internet do not have to follow the laws of
    physics! :-)


    ..especially for people who don't fully understand them...

    Indeed.  And I'm sure you are perfectly well aware of the difference
    between longitudinal sound waves propagating down a narrow pipe and
    transverse electromagnetic waves in a waveguide.

    An antenna is not a waveguide.



    If a Pringles can were highly conductive it would have a cutoff
    frequency of close to 2.4GHz so the attenuation would be very high.
    However, a very thin layer of aluminium on the inside of a cardboard
    tube will be so resistive that it will not make a lot of difference.
    A statement which clearly contradicts the well known skin effect of conductirs at high frequencies.

    For many purposes a well made half-wave dipole or quarter-wave
    monopole gives excellent results which are far better than anything
    that can be achieved with small pcb antennas.

    Sure. Most routers come with wavelength sized wobbly penises that give
    you a few dB.

    A quarter wave monopole made from relatively thick wire or rod can
    be an excellent match to 50 ohm coax so long as the ground plane
    is at least a few wavelengths across.

    A half-wave dipole combined with a coaxial balun can also be a very
    good match but has a slightly narrower bandwidth due to the
    frequency dependency of the coax balun.  The choice of which one to
    use depends mostly on how the antenna is to be mounted.

    An almost omnidirectional antenna with very low losses can be
    more effective than a lossy directional one.


    John


    Nevertheless I have seem that sort of design work.
    I worked around radar antennae briefly in the 1960s.

    What I learned was that theory is too simplified to actually be able to design a real antenna: All our designs were field tested and adjusted.

    I am not advocating Pringle cans.  I wouldnt use one myself. But I am
    not so quick to rubbish them as you are.

    RF propagation is tricky, and real world objects of no apparent value
    often have enormous effects.

    I just say that once I built a Pringles antenna at a training course,
    and it does work. Inside the tube there is a threaded metal rod with a
    number of nuts and washers that had to be put at precise distances
    according to the instructions we followed.

    Black magic.

    We did not have any tool to measure gain, but indeed the router read a
    higher signal that with its manufacturer antena. And it was directional.
    I can not give any number because I don't remember where my notes are.


    Back to the original subject of the thread and to topic; Some of the
    designs out there just put an USB dongle inside the tube, and they work, somehow. No need to actually have a wifi card with socket for the
    antenna. If the Pi is small enough (I have no idea) there will be
    designs out there using it.
    --
    Cheers, Carlos.
    ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc on Sat Dec 27 23:31:48 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On 27/12/2025 20:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2025-12-24 15:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 14:04, John R Walliker wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 12:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 07:58, mm0fmf wrote:
    On 11/12/2025 21:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    Home made with a box of Pringles. just google for "pringles wifi
    antenna".

    Also Google cutoff frequency and see that the Pringle tube is too
    small in diameter to be effective at 2.4GHz.

    Assuming that is a relevant issue.

    Shouting down a pipe whose diameter is way less than the wavlength
    of voice frequencies, still works....

    Of course, designs on the internet do not have to follow the laws
    of physics! :-)


    ..especially for people who don't fully understand them...

    Indeed.  And I'm sure you are perfectly well aware of the difference
    between longitudinal sound waves propagating down a narrow pipe and
    transverse electromagnetic waves in a waveguide.

    An antenna is not a waveguide.



    If a Pringles can were highly conductive it would have a cutoff
    frequency of close to 2.4GHz so the attenuation would be very high.
    However, a very thin layer of aluminium on the inside of a cardboard
    tube will be so resistive that it will not make a lot of difference.
    A statement which clearly contradicts the well known skin effect of
    conductirs at high frequencies.

    For many purposes a well made half-wave dipole or quarter-wave
    monopole gives excellent results which are far better than anything
    that can be achieved with small pcb antennas.

    Sure. Most routers come with wavelength sized wobbly penises that give
    you a few dB.

    A quarter wave monopole made from relatively thick wire or rod can
    be an excellent match to 50 ohm coax so long as the ground plane
    is at least a few wavelengths across.

    A half-wave dipole combined with a coaxial balun can also be a very
    good match but has a slightly narrower bandwidth due to the
    frequency dependency of the coax balun.  The choice of which one to
    use depends mostly on how the antenna is to be mounted.

    An almost omnidirectional antenna with very low losses can be
    more effective than a lossy directional one.


    John


    Nevertheless I have seem that sort of design work.
    I worked around radar antennae briefly in the 1960s.

    What I learned was that theory is too simplified to actually be able
    to design a real antenna: All our designs were field tested and adjusted.

    I am not advocating Pringle cans.  I wouldnt use one myself. But I am
    not so quick to rubbish them as you are.

    RF propagation is tricky, and real world objects of no apparent value
    often have enormous effects.

    I just say that once I built a Pringles antenna at a training course,
    and it does work. Inside the tube there is a threaded metal rod with a number of nuts and washers that had to be put at precise distances
    according to the instructions we followed.

    Black magic.

    Sounds like a primitive Yagi...

    We did not have any tool to measure gain, but indeed the router read a higher signal that with its manufacturer antena. And it was directional.
    I can not give any number because I don't remember where my notes are.

    Always hard to tell anyway.


    Back to the original subject of the thread and to topic; Some of the
    designs out there just put an USB dongle inside the tube, and they work, somehow. No need to actually have a wifi card with socket for the
    antenna. If the Pi is small enough (I have no idea) there will be
    designs out there using it.

    As I said, I took the shortest route to success - relocated the wifi
    point to higher up with less obstructions, and added a suicide alarm to
    kill the receiving process if the signal fails mid message...

    I will have to add another wifi point to replace the one I stole, for
    next summer when that part of the garden is in use :-)
    --
    "Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
    conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
    windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

    Alan Sokal

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  • From rbowman@bowman@montana.com to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc on Sat Dec 27 23:58:46 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.raspberry-pi

    On Sat, 27 Dec 2025 23:31:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Sounds like a primitive Yagi...

    I build a 2m quagi at one point, speaking of primitive.

    http://www.overbeck.com/quagi.htm

    It didn't look like much but I could hit a repeater 160 miles away with a
    5w Radio Shack handi-talki. There's an advantage to having a 7800'
    mountain to put you're repeater on.



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