From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action


So, Randy still just can't shut up.

"Borderlands 4" has some widely reported performance issues. This
actually isn't really that unusual; pretty much every game nowadays
stumbles out the gate, and there's always a small percentage of (very
vocal) people who have problems. It's unfortunate, but given the scope
of modern games and the lack of standardization of the hardware
platform, it's pretty much impossible to get everything right at first
try.

Now, I don't know if "Borderlands 4" is better or worse than its
contemporaries in this regard. Gearbox says, 'No, no, no, it's just a
few people having problems' but given the amount of reporting this is
getting I think it may be a bit worse than usual for PC game launches.
Still, the usual solution to this problem is to apologize, reassure
users that the issue will be fixed, then buckle down and start
patching. In two or three weeks, people won't even remember there was
a problem because the errors will have been corrected.

Not Randy, though. He's gone on his usual screeds. It's not a problem,
he says. Anyway, it's just because people don't have a powerful enough computer. Besides, people who don't have the cash to invest in
computers capable of playing "Borderlands 4" don't really deserve to
play a premium game like "Borderlands 4" anyway. Besides, it's all the
fault of the users, who are playing the game wrong by configuring the
game with the wrong settings.

So, you know, anything but, "look, mea culpa, and we'll do what we can
to ensure you get the experience you paid for".

But I guess that's where this world is now: you can be an asshole and
not only get away with it, but ultimately are lauded (and in some
cases, practically beatified) for it. It's not about being right, or
factual, or empathic: just loud. Randy knows his audience, and this is
the behavior they reward. Obnoxious as Randy is, these people want a
game with a billion guns, and "Borderlands 4" is selling well. Why
then should Randy change his behavior? Despite my hopes otherwise, it
seems increasingly likely he'll keep at it for years to come.






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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On 9/18/2025 9:40 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

So, Randy still just can't shut up.

"Borderlands 4" has some widely reported performance issues. This
actually isn't really that unusual; pretty much every game nowadays
stumbles out the gate, and there's always a small percentage of (very
vocal) people who have problems. It's unfortunate, but given the scope
of modern games and the lack of standardization of the hardware
platform, it's pretty much impossible to get everything right at first
try.

Beyond just the developers just not fixing or finding bugs I don't think
the hardware is always to blame. I've seen/heard too many reports of
people with near identical hardware have very big differences in the
number and severity of "bugs" in any number of games. I also don't
think it is just mods either. I think often it is other software on the machine that are the problem, especially various security packages. The
other software hogs resources and especially for security S/W may
actively touch to some extent what the other S/W is doing and interfere
or block some things.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

So, Randy still just can't shut up.

"Borderlands 4" has some widely reported performance issues. This
actually isn't really that unusual; pretty much every game nowadays
stumbles out the gate, and there's always a small percentage of (very
vocal) people who have problems. It's unfortunate, but given the scope
of modern games and the lack of standardization of the hardware
platform, it's pretty much impossible to get everything right at first
try.

Now, I don't know if "Borderlands 4" is better or worse than its >contemporaries in this regard. Gearbox says, 'No, no, no, it's just a
few people having problems' but given the amount of reporting this is
getting I think it may be a bit worse than usual for PC game launches.
Still, the usual solution to this problem is to apologize, reassure
users that the issue will be fixed, then buckle down and start
patching. In two or three weeks, people won't even remember there was
a problem because the errors will have been corrected.

Not Randy, though. He's gone on his usual screeds. It's not a problem,
he says. Anyway, it's just because people don't have a powerful enough >computer.

I read of one "solve" for the performance issues ...



... increase the cache size to 100GB.

100GB install footprint, another 100GB for cache.

God knows what happens when they patch, or release the inevitable DLCs.

Besides, people who don't have the cash to invest in
computers capable of playing "Borderlands 4" don't really deserve to
play a premium game like "Borderlands 4" anyway. Besides, it's all the
fault of the users, who are playing the game wrong by configuring the
game with the wrong settings.

So, you know, anything but, "look, mea culpa, and we'll do what we can
to ensure you get the experience you paid for".

But I guess that's where this world is now: you can be an asshole and
not only get away with it, but ultimately are lauded (and in some
cases, practically beatified) for it. It's not about being right, or
factual, or empathic: just loud. Randy knows his audience, and this is
the behavior they reward. Obnoxious as Randy is, these people want a
game with a billion guns, and "Borderlands 4" is selling well. Why
then should Randy change his behavior? Despite my hopes otherwise, it
seems increasingly likely he'll keep at it for years to come.

Randy is a clueless asshat who should have been fired years ago.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Tue, 23 Sep 2025 10:27:03 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

I read of one "solve" for the performance issues ...
... increase the cache size to 100GB.
100GB install footprint, another 100GB for cache.

The latest recommendation --direct from Gearbox, no less-- on how to
fix the stuttering problem:

Just wait 15 minutes.

They claim the issue has to do with the shaders continuing to compile
in the background, hogging system resources as they do so. Waiting for
the process to complete will free up those resources. You'll need to
repeat the process anytime you change any of the graphic settings too.

I mean, it could be true. It's bad design nonetheless, although
whether the blame lies with Gearbox or Epic (for how Unreal does
shader caching) is unclear.

Like I've said before; I haven't played "Borderlands 4". I don't know
how bad the stuttering is, or how common. I don't doubt some people
are having a rough time of it, though (just as I don't doubt that some
gamers are finding that the game plays extremely smoothly). But
Gearbox has not handled this launch very well, not the least helped by Pitchford's responses. This latest response --awful as it is-- is the
least terrible thing from them in a while. That says something to me.

Mostly... don't buy Gearbox games. ;-)









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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 09:46:33 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2025 10:27:03 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

I read of one "solve" for the performance issues ...
... increase the cache size to 100GB.
100GB install footprint, another 100GB for cache.

The latest recommendation --direct from Gearbox, no less-- on how to
fix the stuttering problem:

Just wait 15 minutes.

They claim the issue has to do with the shaders continuing to compile
in the background, hogging system resources as they do so. Waiting for
the process to complete will free up those resources. You'll need to
repeat the process anytime you change any of the graphic settings too.

I mean, it could be true. It's bad design nonetheless, although
whether the blame lies with Gearbox or Epic (for how Unreal does
shader caching) is unclear.

Like I've said before; I haven't played "Borderlands 4". I don't know
how bad the stuttering is, or how common. I don't doubt some people
are having a rough time of it, though (just as I don't doubt that some
gamers are finding that the game plays extremely smoothly). But
Gearbox has not handled this launch very well, not the least helped by >Pitchford's responses. This latest response --awful as it is-- is the
least terrible thing from them in a while. That says something to me.

Mostly... don't buy Gearbox games. ;-)

Yeah. Talos Principle 2 used to do that. It put you straight into the
game and your processor was at 85º and your fans sounded like a harrier
jet taking off. And you got 2 fps for the first 30 seconds to a minute. Seriously. On an i9 9900K.

Then they patched TP2 so it won't let you into the game until *all* the
shaders compile. That takes about 5 minutes on my 9900K. Enough time to
go make a sandwich. People complained, and I can see why, but damned if
you do... you know the rest.

Talos Reawakened figured out that it's better to do during a load screen
for a more limited area's needs. It's more tolerable.

Of all the approaches, I prefer Reawakened if it has to be done during
runtime. But there are other ways. Like maybe don't use all the cores for
a background task? It's all CPU.

This is more the entire industry's fault, not your punching bag's.

If it takes 15 minutes to compile shaders on an average system going full
bore, and it does, something needs to change. TP2 takes two to three
minutes on my OP Ryzen 9 7800, and there's probably enough room to spare
to let me right into the game. Gearbox probably tested on something like
that. It's unrealistic.


Some options (because for *sure* someone's gonna see this):

a) Maybe do it in the background (overnight?) while the game isn't
running. It's not necessary to do it on launch, and it's not necessary to
do it all at once. Do it slow as a background process. Let it take three
hours. Then nobody cares. Valve would probably need to introduce a
service for this. I think that would be better than 9 ways to Sunday.

b) Devs can provide a dedicated shader app that we can launch that won't
go fullscreen on us, and runs at lower priority, and remind us when we
need to run it. Then we can use our computer for other things while we
perform this basic maintenance. The core problem, IMO, is you have to
*launch the game* before it does this. Then your computer is in
full-screen dedicated to that game, and the game is "watch the progress
bar." It's a shitty game. Let me launch a stub app and notify me when I
need to do it.

c) Good driver hygeine. Don't update your drivers unless it's absolutely necessary and run the compile once to cache it. Yeah, you'll miss out on
the five fps some "Game Ready" hack gets you, but if you only update when something is broken, it should cache. If it doesn't cache, something is dreadfully wrong.


My new Ryzen 9 7700 gets the job done pdq, but this is the new "loading screen." Apparently, with the SSD problem solving asset throughput, they
found something else to stop gameflow. Because everyone wants that.

This is why we can't have nice things.
--
Zag

Give me the liberty to know, to think, to believe,
and to utter freely according to conscience, above
all other liberties. ~John Milton
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 09:46:33 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2025 10:27:03 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

I read of one "solve" for the performance issues ...
... increase the cache size to 100GB.
100GB install footprint, another 100GB for cache.

The latest recommendation --direct from Gearbox, no less-- on how to
fix the stuttering problem:

Just wait 15 minutes.

Problems with shader compilation is a repeated issue for many games,
not just "Borderlands 4" (although it, like other games relying on
Unreal Engine 5, seems to have the worst of it). Microsoft is working
on a potential solution: pre-compiling all shaders for all hardware permutations, uploading those shaders to the cloud, and then having
the game download the appropriate shaders from the Internet as
necessary.* (They call it "Advanced Shader Delivery"). Which all
sounds inordinately convoluted (like so many Microsoft solutions) but
the idea is to get games and apps running faster by pre-empting the CPU-intensive compilations on local hardware.

Apparently this is a solution already used by many consoles, possible
because those platforms have a much more limited set of hardware
combinations. Doing it for PCs is, obviously, a lot more complicated. Presumably if the hardware was not already available pre-compiled (or
if the Internet was down?) the game would just compile the shaders
locally, as they do now.

The ASUS ROG Ally X --the first "XBox Handheld" SteamDeck-clone-- will
feature this technology but don't expect to see it reach on other
platform any time soon. The API is already available, but developers
will have to take advantage of it, and it's not really clear if it
will really offer the advantages it promises (or, more likely, if its advantages outweigh its disadvantages).

A lot of games seem to get by without needing such hacks.



* read more about it here https://www.engadget.com/gaming/pc/microsofts-fix-for-pc-shader-compilation-stutter-could-take-years-to-fully-implement-183904449.html

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Sun, 28 Sep 2025 12:31:12 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

On Fri, 26 Sep 2025 09:46:33 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson ><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2025 10:27:03 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

I read of one "solve" for the performance issues ...
... increase the cache size to 100GB.
100GB install footprint, another 100GB for cache.

The latest recommendation --direct from Gearbox, no less-- on how to
fix the stuttering problem:

Just wait 15 minutes.

Problems with shader compilation is a repeated issue for many games,
not just "Borderlands 4" (although it, like other games relying on
Unreal Engine 5, seems to have the worst of it). Microsoft is working
on a potential solution: pre-compiling all shaders for all hardware >permutations, uploading those shaders to the cloud, and then having
the game download the appropriate shaders from the Internet as
necessary.* (They call it "Advanced Shader Delivery"). Which all
sounds inordinately convoluted (like so many Microsoft solutions) but
the idea is to get games and apps running faster by pre-empting the >CPU-intensive compilations on local hardware.

Silly. Just give me a compiler tool and let me compile them in the
background instead of right when I want to play.
--
Zag

Give me the liberty to know, to think, to believe,
and to utter freely according to conscience, above
all other liberties. ~John Milton
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

The latest recommendation --direct from Gearbox, no less-- on how to
fix the stuttering problem:

Just wait 15 minutes.

They claim the issue has to do with the shaders continuing to compile
in the background, hogging system resources as they do so. Waiting for
the process to complete will free up those resources. You'll need to
repeat the process anytime you change any of the graphic settings too.

Funny. After their recent patch it probably did take 15 minutes just to
get back into the game, not counting the time Steam took to download and
patch the game. For me, it went like this:

- Steam finished patching, first launch. Game says something about
patching and restarting but hangs.

- Launch #2, it gets to the initial compiling shaders screen which
slowly progresses to 54% and hangs.

- Launch #3, gets to the menu, I can load my game but shader compilation
runs again for a while but finally, game works pretty much as before.
I didn't notice anything about it running slower due to background
compilation but who knows.

FPS on 1080p is around 60 so definitely not great performance even for
an RTX3070Ti. Crashes do still happen on occasion.

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