I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
There are distributions committed to 32 bit Linux, so I don't think that
will be a problem for the next few years. Browsers OTOH might end up being
a problem, but then again, a thing doesn't need a desktop and browser to
sit in a place and do something useful :-).
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be looking
to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a bit sad to
see it go.
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 15:43:17 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be looking
to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a bit sad to
see it go.
I wonder if big-endian support is not similarly on its last legs. Even architectures that started out firmly big-endian eventually gave in and
added little-endian operation modes.
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:It's alive and well on ARM and likely to remain that way.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be looking
to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a bit sad to
see it go.
There are distributions committed to 32 bit Linux, so I don't think
that will be a problem for the next few years.
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
On 02.09.2025 18:58 Jason H wrote:
There are distributions committed to 32 bit Linux, so I don't think
that will be a problem for the next few years.
They rely on the upstream kernel. If x86 is being dropped there, those distributions will come to an end.
LTS kernels might give them some months/years, but the end is near.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 19:35:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:It's alive and well on ARM and likely to remain that way.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be looking
to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a bit sad to
see it go.
Maybe. The OS selection in the Raspberry Pi Imager recommends the 64-bit Bookworm version although it does have 32-bit Bookworm and Bullseye
options.
On 03/09/2025 05:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 19:35:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:you cant run the 64 bit on early pis or zeros
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:It's alive and well on ARM and likely to remain that way.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be looking >>>> to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a bit sad to >>>> see it go.
Maybe. The OS selection in the Raspberry Pi Imager recommends the 64-bit
Bookworm version although it does have 32-bit Bookworm and Bullseye
options.
DO encourage at least ONE distro to hang on to
a 32-bit version for a few more years though.
After that ....... the past is the past.
On 03/09/2025 05:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 19:35:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:It's alive and well on ARM and likely to remain that way.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be
looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be
a bit sad to see it go.
Maybe. The OS selection in the Raspberry Pi Imager recommends theyou cant run the 64 bit on early pis or zeros
64-bit Bookworm version although it does have 32-bit Bookworm and
Bullseye options.
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
There are distributions committed to 32 bit Linux, so I don't think that
will be a problem for the next few years. Browsers OTOH might end up being
a problem, but then again, a thing doesn't need a desktop and browser to
sit in a place and do something useful :-).
On 03.09.2025 03:20 c186282 c186282 wrote:
DO encourage at least ONE distro to hang on to
a 32-bit version for a few more years though.
After that ....... the past is the past.
Slackware plans to do so.
Although, if upstream software will stop supporting it (not only the
kernel, but compilers and linkers), it will definitely come to an end.
On 02.09.2025 18:58 Jason H wrote:
There are distributions committed to 32 bit Linux, so I don't think
that will be a problem for the next few years.
They rely on the upstream kernel. If x86 is being dropped there, those distributions will come to an end.
LTS kernels might give them some months/years, but the end is near.
On 02.09.2025 15:43 John McCue wrote:
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
A bit yes, but just a bit.
All computers that have an x86 only CPU are more than 10 years old (the
last ones were Intel Atoms in Netbooks around 2011). Most of them are
now out of service and way too slow for most basic office tasks.
Just try to run a current webbrowser on an x86 only Intel Atom and play
a YouTube video. Very slow, if it plays at all. Same for the Core Duo
(not Core 2 Duo, they have x86_64) from the middle 2000s.
It is possible to use such systems as small servers, but the power consumption is much higher that for a new cheap one - with x86_64.
TLDR: x86 Linux is almost obsolete in most areas.
I still have 2 laptops with Pentium M, mostly useless, as most software/websites run that slow or make the system freeze.
On 9/3/25 4:51 AM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 03.09.2025 03:20 c186282 c186282 wrote:
DO encourage at least ONE distro to hang on to
a 32-bit version for a few more years though.
After that ....... the past is the past.
Slackware plans to do so.
Although, if upstream software will stop supporting it (not only the
kernel, but compilers and linkers), it will definitely come to an end.
32 has gone the way of 8-bit ....
Nothing really to DO about it ... tech keeps
marching on.
What, should all the distros keep a PDP-11
version ??? Come ON now !!!
Learned on a PDP-11, good unit ... but its
time is LONG LONG gone.
I think custom Linuxes of a 32 bit flavour will be around as long as
there are being platforms made that will run them and need them.
On 2025-09-03, Marco Moock wrote:
On 02.09.2025 15:43 John McCue wrote:
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
A bit yes, but just a bit.
All computers that have an x86 only CPU are more than 10 years old (the
last ones were Intel Atoms in Netbooks around 2011). Most of them are
now out of service and way too slow for most basic office tasks.
Just try to run a current webbrowser on an x86 only Intel Atom and play
a YouTube video. Very slow, if it plays at all. Same for the Core Duo
(not Core 2 Duo, they have x86_64) from the middle 2000s.
It is possible to use such systems as small servers, but the power
consumption is much higher that for a new cheap one - with x86_64.
TLDR: x86 Linux is almost obsolete in most areas.
I still have 2 laptops with Pentium M, mostly useless, as most
software/websites run that slow or make the system freeze.
Yes, but are these seriously unable to do anything else? I'd think web browsers would be the outlier here, unless the other software you're
running is just another webapp.
Stuff like network news and email and file editing and coding on
Emacs/vim, working with VCS repositories, typesetting in LaTeX, chat in well-designed plaforms with light clients, that should not be hitting singificant performance issues.
Reducing these to just usable as "small servers" sounds too much to me.
(Although, yes, the death of IE6 dealt a major blow to the usability of
the JS-enabled web in such systems...)
On 2025-09-03, Marco Moock wrote:
I still have 2 laptops with Pentium M, mostly useless, as most software/websites run that slow or make the system freeze.
Yes, but are these seriously unable to do anything else? I'd think web browsers would be the outlier here, unless the other software you're
running is just another webapp.
Stuff like network news and email and file editing and coding on
Emacs/vim, working with VCS repositories, typesetting in LaTeX, chat
in well-designed plaforms with light clients, that should not be
hitting singificant performance issues.
Reducing these to just usable as "small servers" sounds too much to
me.
On 03/09/2025 10:15, c186282 wrote:
On 9/3/25 4:51 AM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 03.09.2025 03:20 c186282 c186282 wrote:
DO encourage at least ONE distro to hang on to
a 32-bit version for a few more years though.
After that ....... the past is the past.
Slackware plans to do so.
Although, if upstream software will stop supporting it (not only the
kernel, but compilers and linkers), it will definitely come to an end.
32 has gone the way of 8-bit ....
Nothing really to DO about it ... tech keeps
marching on.
What, should all the distros keep a PDP-11
version ??? Come ON now !!!
Learned on a PDP-11, good unit ... but its
time is LONG LONG gone.
I think custom Linuxes of a 32 bit flavour will be around as long as
there are being platforms made that will run them and need them.
that is currently the case in Pis as the Zero and Zero W models are
still in production.
It is probably true to say that ultimately if the PIOS (32bit) were
frozen at the latest level it would still be a usable option for
embedded applications almost forever.
I mean you can still run FreeDos on a *86 if you want. Or CP/M on a z80
That doesn't detract from the argument that a 386SX running today's
linux wouldn't be completely unusable as a day to day desktop.
You would be better off running windows XP on it.
And thats the point. Retro computing uses retro software as well as
retro hardware. And the cost of maintaining REALLY old kit starts to
ruse and its utility starts to fall after a certain age.
I think that is what others than myself have said. The sweet spot for
low cost *86 computing is 5-15 years old, when its cheap to obtain but
has enough power to run the latest software.
Beyond that, scrap it or give it to a retro enthusiast.
On 03/09/2025 10:15, c186282 wrote:Although, no security updates and bugfixed upstream then. Rather
On 9/3/25 4:51 AM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 03.09.2025 03:20 c186282 c186282 wrote:
DO encourage at least ONE distro to hang on to
a 32-bit version for a few more years though.
After that ....... the past is the past.
Slackware plans to do so.
Although, if upstream software will stop supporting it (not only
the kernel, but compilers and linkers), it will definitely come to
an end.
32 has gone the way of 8-bit ....
Nothing really to DO about it ... tech keeps
marching on.
What, should all the distros keep a PDP-11
version ??? Come ON now !!!
Learned on a PDP-11, good unit ... but its
time is LONG LONG gone.
I think custom Linuxes of a 32 bit flavour will be around as long as
there are being platforms made that will run them and need them.
It is probably true to say that ultimately if the PIOS (32bit) wereWithout bugfixes and support, I don't like such solutions. Small x64
frozen at the latest level it would still be a usable option for
embedded applications almost forever.
I mean you can still run FreeDos on a *86 if you want. Or CP/M on aUseless for current applications.
z80
That doesn't detract from the argument that a 386SX running today'sI have serious doubt that you are able to install any current
linux wouldn't be completely unusable as a day to day desktop.
You would be better off running windows XP on it.Will already run horrible on a Pentium 2 - with resources multiple
And thats the point. Retro computing uses retro software as well asAnd is a hobby. Such old stuff sometimes still exists in companies -
retro hardware.
And the cost of maintaining REALLY old kit starts toMany parts of the Linux kernel are maintained by companies. I have
ruse and its utility starts to fall after a certain age.
On 2025-09-03, Marco Moock wrote:
On 02.09.2025 18:58 Jason H wrote:
There are distributions committed to 32 bit Linux, so I don't think
that will be a problem for the next few years.
They rely on the upstream kernel. If x86 is being dropped there,
those distributions will come to an end.
LTS kernels might give them some months/years, but the end is near.
What about other UNIX-like systems? Are BSDs planning to do the same?
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I think custom Linuxes of a 32 bit flavour will be around as long as
there are being platforms made that will run them and need them.
As long as Kernel, Compilers, Toolchains will be around.
Nope. Not at all.
Expect 32 to be totally gone within 2 years.
Beyond that, scrap it or give it to a retro enthusiast.
Plenty of those ... but they'll have to craft
their own libs or stick to really old distros.
On 03/09/2025 11:33, c186282 wrote:I've doubt that the manpower is available for that.
Nope. Not at all.
Expect 32 to be totally gone within 2 years.
Beyond that, scrap it or give it to a retro enthusiast.
Plenty of those ... but they'll have to craft
their own libs or stick to really old distros.
Well they will. They *enjoy* it.
My point being that freeDos, CP/M etc still exist.Not much development and for old stuff only.
As does SUN solaris,Is a niche OS in maintenance mode, no new SPARC processors, no new
Ultrix etc.,Is really, really, dead.
That can do now as well as they ever did, and if you said 'well thatNo new software support, no support for current hardware, buying spare
wasn't much' it was still enough for some stuff.
On 03/09/2025 10:59, Marc Haber wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I think custom Linuxes of a 32 bit flavour will be around as long
as there are being platforms made that will run them and need
them.
As long as Kernel, Compilers, Toolchains will be around.
Well its not hard to write a backend for a compiler is it?
On 03.09.2025 10:52 The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/09/2025 10:15, c186282 wrote:
On 9/3/25 4:51 AM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 03.09.2025 03:20 c186282 c186282 wrote:
DO encourage at least ONE distro to hang on to
a 32-bit version for a few more years though.
After that ....... the past is the past.
Slackware plans to do so.
Although, if upstream software will stop supporting it (not only
the kernel, but compilers and linkers), it will definitely come to
an end.
32 has gone the way of 8-bit ....
Nothing really to DO about it ... tech keeps
marching on.
What, should all the distros keep a PDP-11
version ??? Come ON now !!!
Learned on a PDP-11, good unit ... but its
time is LONG LONG gone.
I think custom Linuxes of a 32 bit flavour will be around as long as
there are being platforms made that will run them and need them.
Although, no security updates and bugfixed upstream then. Rather
unlikely that people will continue to buy such devices.
It is probably true to say that ultimately if the PIOS (32bit) were
frozen at the latest level it would still be a usable option for
embedded applications almost forever.
Without bugfixes and support, I don't like such solutions. Small x64
hardware is cheap.
I mean you can still run FreeDos on a *86 if you want. Or CP/M on a
z80
Useless for current applications.
That doesn't detract from the argument that a 386SX running today's
linux wouldn't be completely unusable as a day to day desktop.
I have serious doubt that you are able to install any current
distribution on such a system. You need a kernel with just a small
portion of the features to make it possible to use only some MBs of RAM.
FYI: ~3 years ago I tried to use the Debian installer on 384 MB - it
crashed. Now images that for machines with under 16MB.
You would be better off running windows XP on it.
Will already run horrible on a Pentium 2 - with resources multiple
times of 386 machines.
And thats the point. Retro computing uses retro software as well as
retro hardware.
And is a hobby. Such old stuff sometimes still exists in companies -
but if it fails or needs to be changes, it is a PITA.
And the cost of maintaining REALLY old kit starts to
ruse and its utility starts to fall after a certain age.
Many parts of the Linux kernel are maintained by companies. I have
doubt that they will care about that old stuff. Linux already dropped
support for really old graphics cards, ISDN and other stuff that is not well-used nowadays and created issues. Nobody liked to seriously take
over.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 19:35:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:The 32-bit ARM chips will likely out-live 32-bit x86 ships (well they already have). There are many embeded ARM 32-bit processors (eg routers and other appliances). This sorts of systems would not benefit from 64-bit and the
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:It's alive and well on ARM and likely to remain that way.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be looking
to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a bit sad to
see it go.
Maybe. The OS selection in the Raspberry Pi Imager recommends the 64-bit Bookworm version although it does have 32-bit Bookworm and Bullseye
options.
On 9/3/25 4:42 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/09/2025 05:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 19:35:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:you cant run the 64 bit on early pis or zeros
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:It's alive and well on ARM and likely to remain that way.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be looking
to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a bit sad to >>>> see it go.
Maybe. The OS selection in the Raspberry Pi Imager recommends the 64-bit >> Bookworm version although it does have 32-bit Bookworm and Bullseye
options.
Then you throw them into the trash bin.I am using an (old) Pi 2 as a network print server... Unlike x86 type machines, there is nothing to really wear out. I recently replaced the uSD card as the old one was starting to get "worn out".
Sorry, but The Past does NOT live forever.
On 03/09/2025 10:59, Marc Haber wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I think custom Linuxes of a 32 bit flavour will be around as long as
there are being platforms made that will run them and need them.
As long as Kernel, Compilers, Toolchains will be around.
Well its not hard to write a backend for a compiler is it?
Or to port a kernel over, especially if you leave out stuff no longer >needed.
We never used 'toolchains' back in the day anyway.
My point being that freeDos, CP/M etc still exist. As does SUN solaris, >Ultrix etc.,
Small 32 bit is even cheaper, and when you are in a product costing
less tha $10 every cent counts.
And mostly bugfixes DO NOT MATTER.
The code you already have runs perfectly well on the existing OS -
why change it?
I mean you can still run FreeDos on a *86 if you want. Or CP/M on a
z80
Useless for current applications.
Absolutely not.
For limited applications its *more than enough*.
That doesn't detract from the argument that a 386SX running today's
linux wouldn't be completely unusable as a day to day desktop.
I have serious doubt that you are able to install any current
distribution on such a system. You need a kernel with just a small
portion of the features to make it possible to use only some MBs of
RAM.
FYI: ~3 years ago I tried to use the Debian installer on 384 MB - it crashed. Now images that for machines with under 16MB.
You would be better off running windows XP on it.
Will already run horrible on a Pentium 2 - with resources multiple
times of 386 machines.
And thats the point. Retro computing uses retro software as well as
retro hardware.
And is a hobby. Such old stuff sometimes still exists in companies -
but if it fails or needs to be changes, it is a PITA.
And the cost of maintaining REALLY old kit starts to
ruse and its utility starts to fall after a certain age.
Many parts of the Linux kernel are maintained by companies. I have
doubt that they will care about that old stuff. Linux already
dropped support for really old graphics cards, ISDN and other stuff
that is not well-used nowadays and created issues. Nobody liked to seriously take over.
You have blinkers on here.
Old code that runs on cheap platforms is perfectly usable for
*limited applications*.
For many people, Wordstar running on CP/M was *all they ever needed*
to write fantastic books on.
I'm running 32 bit code on old Pi Zeros and expect to be running the
same code in 10 years time. If still alive. I have no reason to
update it.
At Wed, 3 Sep 2025 04:44:56 -0400 c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 9/3/25 4:42 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/09/2025 05:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 19:35:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:you cant run the 64 bit on early pis or zeros
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all: >>>>>>It's alive and well on ARM and likely to remain that way.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be looking
to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a bit sad to
see it go.
Maybe. The OS selection in the Raspberry Pi Imager recommends the 64-bit >>>> Bookworm version although it does have 32-bit Bookworm and Bullseye
options.
Then you throw them into the trash bin.
Sorry, but The Past does NOT live forever.
I am using an (old) Pi 2 as a network print server... Unlike x86 type machines, there is nothing to really wear out. I recently replaced the uSD card as the old one was starting to get "worn out".
Adafruit still sells Pi zeros and even has some in stock. These are 32-bit. Unlike the x86 which was almost never of use for embeded / maker use, the ARM chips, esp. 32-bit ones, are commonly use for embedded / special purpose (eg non server / non desktop use). And will likely continue to be for many years. Lower end (read: low power, low heat, fanless) 32-bit ARMs will likely live for many years in embedded / appliance / maker usages, including small simple robots.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
My point being that freeDos, CP/M etc still exist. As does SUN solaris,
Ultrix etc.,
You can continue running vintage OSses on vintage hardware. It is
expecting much (too much) to expect to run a current OS on vintage
hardware for free.
At Wed, 3 Sep 2025 04:44:56 -0400 c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 9/3/25 4:42 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/09/2025 05:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 19:35:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:you cant run the 64 bit on early pis or zeros
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all: >>>>>>It's alive and well on ARM and likely to remain that way.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be looking
to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a bit sad to
see it go.
Maybe. The OS selection in the Raspberry Pi Imager recommends the 64-bit >>>> Bookworm version although it does have 32-bit Bookworm and Bullseye
options.
Then you throw them into the trash bin.
Sorry, but The Past does NOT live forever.
I am using an (old) Pi 2 as a network print server... Unlike x86 type machines, there is nothing to really wear out. I recently replaced the uSD card as the old one was starting to get "worn out".
Adafruit still sells Pi zeros and even has some in stock. These are 32-bit. Unlike the x86 which was almost never of use for embeded / maker use, the ARM chips, esp. 32-bit ones, are commonly use for embedded / special purpose (eg non server / non desktop use). And will likely continue to be for many years. Lower end (read: low power, low heat, fanless) 32-bit ARMs will likely live for many years in embedded / appliance / maker usages, including small simple robots.
Don't see much stuff for the 8051 anymore ....
On 03/09/2025 13:16, c186282 wrote:
Don't see much stuff for the 8051 anymore ....
Very much in use in places you probably never visit
But ARM is in many ways better.
And a 32 bit ARM is way cheaper than an 8051.
On 03/09/2025 12:37, Marc Haber wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
My point being that freeDos, CP/M etc still exist. As does SUN solaris,
Ultrix etc.,
You can continue running vintage OSses on vintage hardware. It is
expecting much (too much) to expect to run a current OS on vintage
hardware for free.
Exactly.
32 bit ARM is still being sold, so 32bit Raspios etc etc is still worth >supporting
But MSDOS still works on an old 8088 computer, and there are all the
tools you need to write code for it still around
On 02.09.2025 15:43 John McCue wrote:
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
A bit yes, but just a bit.
All computers that have an x86 only CPU are more than 10 years old (the
last ones were Intel Atoms in Netbooks around 2011). Most of them are
now out of service and way too slow for most basic office tasks.
Just try to run a current webbrowser on an x86 only Intel Atom and play
a YouTube video. Very slow, if it plays at all. Same for the Core Duo
(not Core 2 Duo, they have x86_64) from the middle 2000s.
It is possible to use such systems as small servers, but the power consumption is much higher that for a new cheap one - with x86_64.
TLDR: x86 Linux is almost obsolete in most areas.
I still have 2 laptops with Pentium M, mostly useless, as most software/websites run that slow or make the system freeze.
ARMs are very good. But they're more intended
to be microprocessors, not microcontrollers.
You'd be better off with the latest PICs.
Feel free to use OS and tools from 2022 on 32bit ARM even in 2035.I hope I get the chance
Because other systems around it are being changed. I've had enough
with 10 y+ old Linux machines. No support for current cryptography,
no support for current SSH and such issues.
For many people, Wordstar running on CP/M was *all they ever needed*
to write fantastic books on.
Back in the days. Nowadays, it is common to distribute the written
files to other machines and there is already the first issue. How
many people can read those files and how can they get them?
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:08:40 +0200
Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
Because other systems around it are being changed. I've had enough
with 10 y+ old Linux machines. No support for current cryptography,
no support for current SSH and such issues.
It's funny how many people here say "there is no use for X" when what
they really mean is "*I* don't have a use for X."
For many people, Wordstar running on CP/M was *all they ever needed*
to write fantastic books on.
Back in the days. Nowadays, it is common to distribute the written
files to other machines and there is already the first issue. How
many people can read those files and how can they get them?
I do my writing on a 16-year-old Asus Eee, which was underpowered when
it was new. Runs mEdit and Claws Mail like a champ, and handles major webnovel sites well enough for me to post from.
(Although, yes, the death of IE6 dealt a major blow to the usability of
the JS-enabled web in such systems...)
Even a few years ago I was doing a look/edit
app for large hard disks. Required 128 bit types/routines. 64 was
already gone, had to use some of those ill-documented $MS types.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/09/2025 12:37, Marc Haber wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
My point being that freeDos, CP/M etc still exist. As does SUN solaris, >>>> Ultrix etc.,
You can continue running vintage OSses on vintage hardware. It is
expecting much (too much) to expect to run a current OS on vintage
hardware for free.
Exactly.
32 bit ARM is still being sold, so 32bit Raspios etc etc is still worth
supporting
If one of the layers stops, the others will follow. Leaving 32bit ARM
to commercial OSses. Embedded stuff is more often proprietary than you
may think.
But MSDOS still works on an old 8088 computer, and there are all the
tools you need to write code for it still around
Computer from 1980, OS from 1990, Tools from 1990. No contradiction.
Feel free to use OS and tools from 2022 on 32bit ARM even in 2035.
On 03/09/2025 05:42, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2025 19:35:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:you cant run the 64 bit on early pis or zeros
On 02/09/2025 16:43, John McCue wrote:
I ram across this long article. It is free to read for all:It's alive and well on ARM and likely to remain that way.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1035727/4837b0d3dccf1cbb/
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also be
looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I will be a
bit sad to see it go.
Maybe. The OS selection in the Raspberry Pi Imager recommends the
64-bit Bookworm version although it does have 32-bit Bookworm and
Bullseye options.
Adafruit still sells Pi zeros and even has some in stock. These are
32-bit. Unlike the x86 which was almost never of use for embeded / maker
use, the ARM chips, esp. 32-bit ones, are commonly use for embedded /
special purpose (eg non server / non desktop use). And will likely
continue to be for many years.
Lower end (read: low power, low heat, fanless) 32-bit ARMs will likely
live for many years in embedded / appliance / maker usages, including
small simple robots.
Don't see much stuff for the 8051 anymore ....
And a 32 bit ARM is way cheaper than an 8051.
ARMs are very good. But they're more intended to be microprocessors,
not microcontrollers. You'd be better off with the latest PICs.
Everything later that 3B can run 64 bit. That came out in 2026 - so more
than 10 years old when Linux considers dropping 32 bit support.
Stuff like network news and email and file editing and coding on
Emacs/vim, working with VCS repositories, typesetting in LaTeX,
chat in well-designed plaforms with light clients, that should
not be hitting singificant performance issues.
On 9/3/25 00:17, Marco Moock wrote:I am running Slackware on it, but the memory and CPU resource
I still have 2 laptops with Pentium M, mostly useless, as most software/websites run that slow or make the system freeze.
You should try some of the smaller distributions on those
machines. Keep track of the smaller stuff like Puppy and its variants
on Distrowatch. You may have to adjust the tools you use.
Your terminology is off there. x86 is used to refer to theMost distributions call it x86. Some call it i686, some i386 (e.g.
basic archetecture
of the CPU not whether it is a 32 bit wide bus or a 64 bit wide bus.
You should talk about specific x86, processors such 8086.
80286. 80386, 80486, the 80686 then the pentiums with multicore x86 processors.
I have used a 700 MHz Coppermine to run 64 bit MandrivaI had Debian on a Compaq Deskpro with 384MB and a 600 MHz Pentium 3
in 784 MB of RAM with a Megabyte of graphic RAM. It had been made to
use XP or an even earlier version of Windows. But I crammed Mandriva
in there in a 2009 version and ran it with only one virtual desktop
and it worked very well. The base machine was a Dell Inspiron 4000
laptop.
Nuno Silva <nunojsi...@invalid.invalid> [NS]:
Stuff like network news and email and file editing and coding on Emacs/vim, working with VCS repositories, typesetting in LaTeX,
chat in well-designed plaforms with light clients, that should
not be hitting singificant performance issues.
Besides personal computing, 10-20 year old computers are still
more than adequate even for (almost hidden) *enterprise*
applications: log servers, employee sign-in/sign-out systems,
IVR systems, smart building monitoring, access control.
Your terminology is off there. x86 is used to refer to the basic
archetecture of the CPU not whether it is a 32 bit wide bus or a 64 bit
wide bus.
Besides personal computing, 10-20 year old computers are still
more than adequate even for (almost hidden) *enterprise*
applications: log servers, employee sign-in/sign-out systems,
IVR systems, smart building monitoring, access control.
On 03/09/2025 14:16, Marc Haber wrote:
Feel free to use OS and tools from 2022 on 32bit ARM even in 2035.I hope I get the chance
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:08:40 +0200
Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
Back in the days. Nowadays, it is common to distribute the written
files to other machines and there is already the first issue. How
many people can read those files and how can they get them?
I do my writing on a 16-year-old Asus Eee, which was underpowered when
it was new. Runs mEdit and Claws Mail like a champ, and handles major >webnovel sites well enough for me to post from.
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 08:16:23 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Don't see much stuff for the 8051 anymore ....
You're not looking in the right places. True Intel dropped the MCS-51 but
the core lives on. Check your refrigerator. Or do a head count in your
car.
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 13:26:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And a 32 bit ARM is way cheaper than an 8051.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/microchip-technology/ AT89S51-24PU/1118891
$3.32
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/microchip-technology/ SAM9X60D6K-I-4GB/11476174
$7.59
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/09/2025 14:16, Marc Haber wrote:
Feel free to use OS and tools from 2022 on 32bit ARM even in 2035.I hope I get the chance
Why would you not?
Greetings--
Marc
Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-202509.rodent.frell.theremailer.net>
wrote:
Besides personal computing, 10-20 year old computers are still
more than adequate even for (almost hidden) *enterprise*
applications: log servers, employee sign-in/sign-out systems,
IVR systems, smart building monitoring, access control.
Things like that get replaced in sane companies because the company
can't afford them to break.
FreeBSD already dropped support for i686 for 15. https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-announce/2024- February/000117.html
14 will continue to support 32 bit.
Marco Moock wrote:
FreeBSD already dropped support for i686 for 15. https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-announce/2024- February/000117.html
14 will continue to support 32 bit.
Beyond November 2028?
I do my writing on a 16-year-old Asus Eee, which was underpowered
when it was new. Runs mEdit and Claws Mail like a champ, and handles
major webnovel sites well enough for me to post from.
And it's going to lose Linux support sooner or later. Live with it, or
start contributing to 32bit Linux.
On 04/09/2025 08:39, Marc Haber wrote:
Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-202509.rodent.frell.theremailer.net>We used to end up putting linux on all the old kit and running BIND on
wrote:
Besides personal computing, 10-20 year old computers are still
more than adequate even for (almost hidden) *enterprise*
applications: log servers, employee sign-in/sign-out systems,
IVR systems, smart building monitoring, access control.
Things like that get replaced in sane companies because the company
can't afford them to break.
them. Perfectly fast enough.
There was nothing unreliable about them.
And with two BINDc servers one can fail ...and not be a huge issue
On 04/09/2025 08:44, Marc Haber wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:Death, mainly
On 03/09/2025 14:16, Marc Haber wrote:
Feel free to use OS and tools from 2022 on 32bit ARM even in 2035.I hope I get the chance
Why would you not?
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:<snip>
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:08:40 +0200
Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
I do my writing on a 16-year-old Asus Eee, which was underpowered when
it was new. Runs mEdit and Claws Mail like a champ, and handles major >>webnovel sites well enough for me to post from.
And it's going to lose Linux support sooner or later. Live with it, or
start contributing to 32bit Linux.
Indeed, but 10 year old computers are now retired because of W10 EOL,
so they can use them and install current Linux/BSD and don't mess with
the 25 year old stuff. Much cheaper, as time is money in that case.
Anyway as to the Asus Eee, looks like NetBSD works fine on
those. Since it seems eventually NetBSD may end up as the
only game in town for 32 bit, John could always migrate once
Linux drops 32 bit.
https://wiki.netbsd.org/laptops/#index3h1
I have NetBSD on an older Laptop and it works great, installing
it can be a bit confusing and setting up encryption a bit more
confusing, just review the Guide many times and then take a
run at it. If you know Linux, NetBSD is not too different
and the learning curve is small.
Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
<snip>
Indeed, but 10 year old computers are now retired because of W10 EOL,
so they can use them and install current Linux/BSD and don't mess with
the 25 year old stuff. Much cheaper, as time is money in that case.
I forgot about this, plus IIRC October 2025 is the drop dead
month for older hardware and Windows. I will have to make a
note to watch used sites for good deals :)
June 2026, graphic cards die.
Spanish link - I don't have an English one:
<https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2025/09/tarjetas-graficas-no-arrancaran-pc-junio-2026-secure-boot-microsoft-uefi-gop/>
June 2026, graphic cards die.
Spanish link - I don't have an English one:
<https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2025/09/tarjetas-graficas-no-arrancaran-pc-junio-2026-secure-boot-microsoft-uefi-gop/>
DeepL translation:
In June 2026, your PC may not start up because of your graphics card's
UEFI GOP
By Protector Indefinido 01/09/2025
In a few months, the world of PC hardware could face a silent but
serious, very serious problem. The reason is not a physical failure or planned obsolescence, but something much more bureaucratic: the expiry
of a certificate that until now signed the UEFI firmware of many GPUs, specifically the Microsoft UEFI CA 2011. If there is no timely
response, those affected, millions of users, could find themselves
with black screens from the moment they turn on their PCs, without
getting past POST, and in some cases, with computers rendered
virtually unusable due to graphics cards with an unsigned UEFI GOP by
2026.
Virtually no one had realised the significance of what we are about to
see, but after collating the information and based on what Microsoft
has revealed, it does appear to be true, as it all stems from an
analysis on Reddit by user Gaseousgalaxy. This raises the key and most pertinent question: why is this issue so important and what does the so-called UEFI GOP have to do with all this?
(... continues on the link)
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
June 2026, graphic cards die.
Spanish link - I don't have an English one:
<https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2025/09/tarjetas-graficas-no-arrancaran-pc-junio-2026-secure-boot-microsoft-uefi-gop/>
DeepL translation:
In June 2026, your PC may not start up because of your graphics card's
UEFI GOP
By Protector Indefinido 01/09/2025
In a few months, the world of PC hardware could face a silent but
serious, very serious problem. The reason is not a physical failure or
planned obsolescence, but something much more bureaucratic: the expiry
of a certificate that until now signed the UEFI firmware of many GPUs,
specifically the Microsoft UEFI CA 2011. If there is no timely
response, those affected, millions of users, could find themselves
with black screens from the moment they turn on their PCs, without
getting past POST, and in some cases, with computers rendered
virtually unusable due to graphics cards with an unsigned UEFI GOP by
2026.
Virtually no one had realised the significance of what we are about to
see, but after collating the information and based on what Microsoft
has revealed, it does appear to be true, as it all stems from an
analysis on Reddit by user Gaseousgalaxy. This raises the key and most
pertinent question: why is this issue so important and what does the
so-called UEFI GOP have to do with all this?
(... continues on the link)
I think this is largely scaremongering. See https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/72892.html for a better-informed source.
Briefly:
Certificate expiry is not likely to be an issue here. UEFI firmware does
not enforce expiry dates when it verifies certificate. This is pretty
common practice for code signing.
The real issue is that at some (currently unknown) point in the future
new code will stop being signed with the ‘expired’ key, and only signed with its replacement. When that happens, platforms that only trust the
old key won’t be able to install video cards or boot operating systems
that were only signed with the new key.
AFAIK disabling secure boot will work as a workaround.
Anyway as to the Asus Eee, looks like NetBSD works fine on those. Since
it seems eventually NetBSD may end up as the only game in town for 32
bit, John could always migrate once Linux drops 32 bit.
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
June 2026, graphic cards die.
Spanish link - I don't have an English one:
<https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2025/09/tarjetas-graficas-no-arrancaran-pc-junio-2026-secure-boot-microsoft-uefi-gop/>
DeepL translation:
In June 2026, your PC may not start up because of your graphics card's
UEFI GOP
By Protector Indefinido 01/09/2025
In a few months, the world of PC hardware could face a silent but
serious, very serious problem. The reason is not a physical failure or
planned obsolescence, but something much more bureaucratic: the expiry
of a certificate that until now signed the UEFI firmware of many GPUs,
specifically the Microsoft UEFI CA 2011. If there is no timely
response, those affected, millions of users, could find themselves
with black screens from the moment they turn on their PCs, without
getting past POST, and in some cases, with computers rendered
virtually unusable due to graphics cards with an unsigned UEFI GOP by
2026.
Virtually no one had realised the significance of what we are about to
see, but after collating the information and based on what Microsoft
has revealed, it does appear to be true, as it all stems from an
analysis on Reddit by user Gaseousgalaxy. This raises the key and most
pertinent question: why is this issue so important and what does the
so-called UEFI GOP have to do with all this?
(... continues on the link)
I think this is largely scaremongering. See https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/72892.html for a better-informed source.
Briefly:
Certificate expiry is not likely to be an issue here. UEFI firmware does
not enforce expiry dates when it verifies certificate. This is pretty
common practice for code signing.
The real issue is that at some (currently unknown) point in the future
new code will stop being signed with the ‘expired’ key, and only signed with its replacement. When that happens, platforms that only trust the
old key won’t be able to install video cards or boot operating systems
that were only signed with the new key.
AFAIK disabling secure boot will work as a workaround.
And to fix the door control system you need to enter the server
room, which is protected by said door control system.
We never used 'toolchains' back in the day anyway.
But ARM is in many ways better.
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 13:26:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But ARM is in many ways better.
Booted up a Cisco switch the other day, and said it had a “Cavium Octeon >II” processor. With a Linux kernel, too.
That’s MIPS-based. And it’s from this century.
Lawrence D´Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But ARM is in many ways better.
Booted up a Cisco switch the other day, and said it had a “Cavium Octeon >>II” processor. With a Linux kernel, too.
That’s MIPS-based. And it’s from this century.
MIPS hat a long life in embedded environments. My Dreambox 7080 HD TV receiver has a MIPS CPU as well.
The Cisco 801, a famous ISDN router that was omnipresent in commercial deployments around the millennium, had a PowerQUICC CPU which would
today be called an SOC. That one actually had a PowerPC core.
On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 15:40:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
Anyway as to the Asus Eee, looks like NetBSD works fine on those. Since
it seems eventually NetBSD may end up as the only game in town for 32
bit, John could always migrate once Linux drops 32 bit.
https://www.q4os.org/
I installed Q4OS on the eeePC. The KDE desktop was too heavy but Trinity works fine.
On Thu, 04 Sep 2025 17:23:40 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
And to fix the door control system you need to enter the server
room, which is protected by said door control system.
You can just hear the voice saying “I’m sorry Dave, I’m afraid I can’t do
that” ...
Look folks ... 16/32-bit is just OVER. Any existing
support is going to be VERY short now. Even the
little ARMs are 64-bit now - have been for awhile.
Copy over the software code and config files to a
64-bit system. Recompile. MOSTLY it will work unless
you went WAY weird.
Even a PI-4, maybe PI-3, is faster and more capable
than that 386 box.
Oh, "WAY Weird" ... massive customization of config
and kernel stuff ... IMHO you shouldn't DO it. Yea,
tempting, kinda fun, but ......
Real world, stick pretty CLOSE to default or you're
gonna get fucked. This ain't Atari and C64 anymore.
On 9/4/25 2:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 15:40:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
Anyway as to the Asus Eee, looks like NetBSD works fine on those. Since >>> it seems eventually NetBSD may end up as the only game in town for 32
bit, John could always migrate once Linux drops 32 bit.
https://www.q4os.org/
I installed Q4OS on the eeePC. The KDE desktop was too heavy but Trinity
works fine.
My EEEPC was good - but NOT insanely fast. By far
best to stick with LIGHT desktops. They exist,
even now.
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 08:45:06 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Your terminology is off there. x86 is used to refer to the basic
archetecture of the CPU not whether it is a 32 bit wide bus or a 64 bit
wide bus.
Yes. To distinguish 32-bit from 64-bit, the terms are “x86-32” and “x86-64”. Or “AMD64” for the latter, since AMD invented it, after all.
Once you have started the browser, resource usage of the desktop is irrelevant.
On 2025-09-04, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 08:45:06 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Your terminology is off there. x86 is used to refer to the basic
archetecture of the CPU not whether it is a 32 bit wide bus or a 64 bit
wide bus.
Yes. To distinguish 32-bit from 64-bit, the terms are “x86-32” and
“x86-64”. Or “AMD64” for the latter, since AMD invented it, after all.
Wouldn't the "AMD64" equivalent term for 32-bit be "IA-32"?
On 2025-09-04, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 08:45:06 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Your terminology is off there. x86 is used to refer to the basic
archetecture of the CPU not whether it is a 32 bit wide bus or a 64 bit
wide bus.
Yes. To distinguish 32-bit from 64-bit, the terms are “x86-32” and
“x86-64”. Or “AMD64” for the latter, since AMD invented it, after all.
Wouldn't the "AMD64" equivalent term for 32-bit be "IA-32"?
On 05/09/2025 11:00, Marc Haber wrote:
Once you have started the browser, resource usage of the desktop is
irrelevant.
I think that needs to be engraved on Somewhere Important and Visible
| Sysop: | DaiTengu |
|---|---|
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| Nodes: | 10 (0 / 10) |
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| D/L today: |
3,478 files (1,088M bytes) |
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