On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the Apple
stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage beyond 2 years.
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price, and you wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles me. They can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay
extra for that. Just retarded.
On 10/17/2025 10:44 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the Apple
stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage beyond 2
years.
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price, and
you wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles
me. They can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless
you pay extra for that. Just retarded.
Yes I do pay extra. I dropped an older iPhone in the toilet. Bricked it. Replaced under AppleCare+. I dropped an iPad on concrete with no case on
it. Bricked. Replaced under AppleCare+. Had an iPad screen crack while
it was in my briefcase. Replaced under AppleCare+. The wife's 5 year old iPad volume controls stopped working. Replaced under AppleCare+. An
iPhone battery that went below 80% after 3 years. Replaced under
AppleCare+.
Before you say none of this would have happened with an Android device
think twice. An ASUS Android tablet that burned out 2 power supplies,
then discarded. Another Android tablet that just plain bricked. Tossed
it. Android phone or two that had cracked screens. Multiple Android
phones and tablets that only got one or 2 years of OS updates. No nearby service center.
On 10/16/2025 12:37 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 15:07, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 5:06 PM, Tyrone wrote:
On Oct 15, 2025 at 3:46:32 PM EDT, ""Joel W. Crump""
<joelcrump@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
Kind of like they're following a cult, huh?
Not at all. People CHOOSE to buy them. People in a cult are
typically forced
to do certain things AND forced to remain in the cult. Leaving
peacefully is
generally not an option. People also CHOOSE to buy Samsung phones,
Toyota cars
and Wendy's burgers. And buy them again and again.
Why do the Apple haters always claim Apple is a "cult"? Is Samsung
a "cult"?
Toyota? Wendy's? Why not? They are all extremely popular.
They are all just companies that sell products. Feel free to buy/
not buy,
whatever you want. But you have to allow me to do the same.
Ridiculing
people for the products they use only shows YOUR insecurities.
Samsung doesn't impose the kind of mind-warping crap that Apple does,
Like what?
They just don't put any R&D into the UI like Samsung does. It's lame.
They expect you to learn their weird methods, and if someone who isn't familiar, like me, is handed one, it's like "how do I do what you just
said to do?" I don't know, I get lost immediately, because there's no central access to all the apps. It's missing.
with regard to the Galaxy S vs. iPhone. Apple in terms of the Mac
product line is a cult because no one would use it unless they really
don't like Windows and/or Linux. It's quirkware. It's for people
with brains that are not up to speed. And that's why it costs so
much, you're getting speshul treatment.
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird people love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there are certain very specific professional applications that are well-made for it, high-endI asked you to define "quirkware".
video editing and so forth. My biggest problem with it is the prices, though, because I recognize that weird people genuinely like the UI, but they're paying a serious premium to get it.
On 10/17/2025 10:37 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/17/2025 9:35 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/16/2025 12:37 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 15:07, Joel W. Crump wrote:
Apple in terms of the Mac product line is a cult because no one
would use it unless they really don't like Windows and/or Linux.
It's quirkware. It's for people with brains that are not up to
speed. And that's why it costs so much, you're getting speshul
treatment.
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird people
love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there are certain
very specific professional applications that are well-made for it,
high-end video editing and so forth. My biggest problem with it is
the prices, though, because I recognize that weird people genuinely
like the UI, but they're paying a serious premium to get it.
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day. There
is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are coming
from Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. NotAnd you don't need any more training to learn to use macOS or iOS than
so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I
started working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and
UNIX terminals. I literally did not know where the on switch was
to any of them. I did know the older Apple II systems. In any
case, my job was to help others with using software -- so no
matter the system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a good
job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of
education labs and teaching high school students on weekends
(though Upward Bound).
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and
software and figuring out what others were finding challenging.
And that was when things were changing fairly quickly, at least in
the PC world (Windows came into prominence then). Even a bit later
when Windows 95 came out, I was working with a large school
district and United Way as a sysop but also in charge of training.
Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training
(mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at
tech are, like all of us, shaded by my experience, but my
experience has largely been about figuring things out and
teaching. Or when doing tech work for small schools / businesses
finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money to do.
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
Samsung doesn't impose the kind of mind-warping crap that Apple does,
Like what?
They just don't put any R&D into the UI like Samsung does. It's lame.
They expect you to learn their weird methods, and if someone who isn't
familiar, like me, is handed one, it's like "how do I do what you just
said to do?" I don't know, I get lost immediately, because there's no
central access to all the apps. It's missing.
You never address the question you've been asked.
with regard to the Galaxy S vs. iPhone. Apple in terms of the Mac
product line is a cult because no one would use it unless they
really don't like Windows and/or Linux. It's quirkware. It's for
people with brains that are not up to speed. And that's why it
costs so much, you're getting speshul treatment.
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird people
love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there are certain
very specific professional applications that are well-made for it,
high-end video editing and so forth. My biggest problem with it is
the prices, though, because I recognize that weird people genuinely
like the UI, but they're paying a serious premium to get it.
I asked you to define "quirkware".
You never answer the question you've been asked.
Hint:
You not knowing how to use something does not mean that thing is "mind- warping" or "quirkware".
On 2025-10-17 07:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:37 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
There
is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are coming
from Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it.
Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to
the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
And you don't need any more training to learn to use macOS or iOS than
you do for any other GUI.
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day.
There is
nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are coming from >>>> Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. Not >>> so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the UI. >>> I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from LSD use, crapware, you're right.
On 10/17/2025 3:14 PM, Alan wrote:
Samsung doesn't impose the kind of mind-warping crap that Apple does, >>>>Like what?
They just don't put any R&D into the UI like Samsung does. It's
lame. They expect you to learn their weird methods, and if someone
who isn't familiar, like me, is handed one, it's like "how do I do
what you just said to do?" I don't know, I get lost immediately,
because there's no central access to all the apps. It's missing.
You never address the question you've been asked.
No, you didn't address my answer, because you know I'm right.
with regard to the Galaxy S vs. iPhone. Apple in terms of the Mac >>>>> product line is a cult because no one would use it unless they
really don't like Windows and/or Linux. It's quirkware. It's for >>>>> people with brains that are not up to speed. And that's why it
costs so much, you're getting speshul treatment.
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird people
love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there are certain
very specific professional applications that are well-made for it,
high-end video editing and so forth. My biggest problem with it is
the prices, though, because I recognize that weird people genuinely
like the UI, but they're paying a serious premium to get it.
I asked you to define "quirkware".
You never answer the question you've been asked.
Hint:
You not knowing how to use something does not mean that thing is
"mind- warping" or "quirkware".
I can't explain it in detail, off the top of my head, I'm expectingYou can't explain it...
people to have seen a Mac before, to recognize what I mean by "counterintuitive".
On 10/16/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 12:46, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
Kind of like they're following a cult, huh?
Or like they're satisfied by the product they've bought.
Maybe. My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do something, I
always get lost, there's no button to flip between apps like on a
Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting me to know what I'm doing with the POS.
On 10/17/2025 9:41 AM, David B. wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It drives
me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do something, I always
get lost, there's no button to flip between apps like on a Samsung.
It's retarded. But she keeps expecting me to know what I'm doing
with the POS.
Simply swipe all the Apps off the screen from right to left until you
reach "The End" where ALL the apps are shown, together with a Search
box at the top!
Easy!
Samsung just lets me pull up a screen where I can flip between
everything running, without any hassle.
On 10/17/2025 12:28 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 10:44:50 -0400
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the Apple
stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage beyond 2
years.
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price, and you
wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles me. They >>> can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay
extra for that. Just retarded.
It's a whole different business model; just leave the Apple guys alone.
They are "happy" or "suckers" - it depends on what where you sit.
You have a point, they're never going to listen to me, because they are
so averse to Windows and/or Linux.
On 10/16/2025 1:28 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I also have a Toyota Corolla -- there are definitely cheaper cars,
but I like
the reliability and the features that Toyota offers.
Corollas (or Elantras) are great and worth it.
Do not know about Elantras but Corollas are amazing. Not super high
end, but
they keep their value very well because they last very well.
I had always wanted a Corolla, until I saw the Elantra my mom boughtI'm sure the controls in the driver's position aren't all exactly the
this year, I get to drive it a fair bit when we're together, and I am
sold on them.
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember anBullshit.
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 07:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:37 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are
coming from Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as
difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it.
Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to
the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
And you don't need any more training to learn to use macOS or iOS than
you do for any other GUI.
It was hard, for me, with some of the apps, Apple is just weird. But I could understand that some people relate to it, because people have differences, but then they have to pay through the nose for access.
On 10/17/2025 2:41 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:44 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the
Apple stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage
beyond 2 years.
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price, and
you wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles
me. They can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last,
unless you pay extra for that. Just retarded.
Yes I do pay extra. I dropped an older iPhone in the toilet. Bricked
it. Replaced under AppleCare+. I dropped an iPad on concrete with no
case on it. Bricked. Replaced under AppleCare+. Had an iPad screen
crack while it was in my briefcase. Replaced under AppleCare+. The
wife's 5 year old iPad volume controls stopped working. Replaced under
AppleCare+. An iPhone battery that went below 80% after 3 years.
Replaced under AppleCare+.
Before you say none of this would have happened with an Android device
think twice. An ASUS Android tablet that burned out 2 power supplies,
then discarded. Another Android tablet that just plain bricked. Tossed
it. Android phone or two that had cracked screens. Multiple Android
phones and tablets that only got one or 2 years of OS updates. No
nearby service center.
I guess if you put your devices through such hell that they fall in
toilets and get broken, it might be worth it, but I try to avoid such problems. Not to say I've been perfect on that, but knock on wood, my Galaxy S21 is four years old and didn't break when I dropped it a time
or two. Wouldn't be as confident about knock-off brands.
On 2025-10-17 06:28, Joel W. Crump wrote:
…
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in the way
that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember anBullshit.
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work the
way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:Bullshit.
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work the
way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at home
with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying to bend
the computer to your will and accept using it in the way that it's been designed.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:Bullshit.
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work the
way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at home
with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying to bend
the computer to your will and accept using it in the way that it's been designed.
On 17/10/2025 17:00, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:47:31 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<7GsIQ.518186$7Ika.237806@fx17.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 10:37 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/17/2025 9:35 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/16/2025 12:37 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 15:07, Joel W. Crump wrote:
Apple in terms of the Mac
product line is a cult because no one would use it unless they
really don't like Windows and/or Linux. It's quirkware. It's for >>>>>>> people with brains that are not up to speed. And that's why it
costs so much, you're getting speshul treatment.
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird people
love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there are certain >>>>> very specific professional applications that are well-made for it,
high-end video editing and so forth. My biggest problem with it is
the prices, though, because I recognize that weird people genuinely
like the UI, but they're paying a serious premium to get it.
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day. There is >>>> nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are coming from >>>> Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. Not >>> so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the UI. >>> I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I started
working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and UNIX terminals. I >> literally did not know where the on switch was to any of them. I did know the
older Apple II systems. In any case, my job was to help others with using
software -- so no matter the system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a
good job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of
education labs and teaching high school students on weekends (though Upward >> Bound).
A great way to learn! 🙂
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and software and
figuring out what others were finding challenging. And that was when things >> were changing fairly quickly, at least in the PC world (Windows came into
prominence then). Even a bit later when Windows 95 came out, I was working >> with a large school district and United Way as a sysop but also in charge of >> training. Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training >> (mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at tech are, like
all of us, shaded by my experience, but my experience has largely been about >> figuring things out and teaching. Or when doing tech work for small schools /
businesses finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money to do.
All good experience, but NOT in the same league as most other folk on
the ACW group! ;-)
Many are "Professionals"!
On 10/17/25 4:06 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:I wonder why the same can't be said for Windows 11.
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:Bullshit.
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using >>>>>>>> it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a >>>>>>>> GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work the
way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at home
with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying to bend
the computer to your will and accept using it in the way that it's been
designed.
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. Not >>> so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the UI. >>> I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I started
working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and UNIX terminals. I >> literally did not know where the on switch was to any of them. I did know the
older Apple II systems. In any case, my job was to help others with using
software -- so no matter the system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a
good job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of
education labs and teaching high school students on weekends (though Upward >> Bound).
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and software and
figuring out what others were finding challenging. And that was when things >> were changing fairly quickly, at least in the PC world (Windows came into
prominence then). Even a bit later when Windows 95 came out, I was working >> with a large school district and United Way as a sysop but also in charge of >> training. Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training >> (mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at tech are, like
all of us, shaded by my experience, but my experience has largely been about >> figuring things out and teaching. Or when doing tech work for small schools /
businesses finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money to do.
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I
started working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and
UNIX terminals. I literally did not know where the on switch was
to any of them. I did know the older Apple II systems. In any
case, my job was to help others with using software -- so no
matter the system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a good
job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of
education labs and teaching high school students on weekends
(though Upward Bound).
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and
software and figuring out what others were finding challenging.
And that was when things were changing fairly quickly, at least in
the PC world (Windows came into prominence then). Even a bit later
when Windows 95 came out, I was working with a large school
district and United Way as a sysop but also in charge of training.
Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training
(mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at
tech are, like all of us, shaded by my experience, but my
experience has largely been about figuring things out and
teaching. Or when doing tech work for small schools / businesses
finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money to do.
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
On 10/17/2025 3:14 PM, Alan wrote:
Samsung doesn't impose the kind of mind-warping crap that Apple does, >>>>Like what?
They just don't put any R&D into the UI like Samsung does. It's lame.
They expect you to learn their weird methods, and if someone who isn't
familiar, like me, is handed one, it's like "how do I do what you just
said to do?" I don't know, I get lost immediately, because there's no
central access to all the apps. It's missing.
You never address the question you've been asked.
No, you didn't address my answer, because you know I'm right.
with regard to the Galaxy S vs. iPhone. Apple in terms of the Mac
product line is a cult because no one would use it unless they
really don't like Windows and/or Linux. It's quirkware. It's for
people with brains that are not up to speed. And that's why it
costs so much, you're getting speshul treatment.
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird people
love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there are certain
very specific professional applications that are well-made for it,
high-end video editing and so forth. My biggest problem with it is
the prices, though, because I recognize that weird people genuinely
like the UI, but they're paying a serious premium to get it.
I asked you to define "quirkware".
You never answer the question you've been asked.
Hint:
You not knowing how to use something does not mean that thing is "mind-
warping" or "quirkware".
I can't explain it in detail, off the top of my head, I'm expecting
people to have seen a Mac before, to recognize what I mean by "counterintuitive".
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
On 2025-10-17 09:57, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:28 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 10:44:50 -0400
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the Apple >>>>> stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage beyond 2
years.
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price, and you >>>> wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles me. They >>>> can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay
extra for that. Just retarded.
It's a whole different business model; just leave the Apple guys alone.
They are "happy" or "suckers" - it depends on what where you sit.
You have a point, they're never going to listen to me, because they are
so averse to Windows and/or Linux.
I'm not "averse" to either of them, dipshit.
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many opportunities
to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it when necessary.
On 2025-10-17 12:28, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 07:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:37 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are >>>>> coming from Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as
difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it.
Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to
the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
And you don't need any more training to learn to use macOS or iOS than
you do for any other GUI.
It was hard, for me, with some of the apps, Apple is just weird. But I
could understand that some people relate to it, because people have
differences, but then they have to pay through the nose for access.
Maybe you're just stupid.
And like a lot of stupid people, you assume everyone else is stupid (and
not you), so if they make a choice that you disagree with, it can only
be because they've been duped.
Clue time, nitwit:
When people stick with a product over years if not decades, it's because
it works well for them.
Second clue time:
I've spent the last 35 years of my life using computers, and selling,
and supporting Macs and PCs.
In all that time, I've recommended using Macs to literally hundreds of
people and only two (yes: just 2!) have ever wanted to go back to using Windows.
Many have literally come back to thank me for selling them a more
expensive solution.
On 10/17/2025 10:44 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the Apple
stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage beyond 2 years. >>
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price, and you
wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles me. They >> can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay
extra for that. Just retarded.
Yes I do pay extra. I dropped an older iPhone in the toilet. Bricked it. Replaced under AppleCare+. I dropped an iPad on concrete with no case on
it. Bricked. Replaced under AppleCare+. Had an iPad screen crack while
it was in my briefcase. Replaced under AppleCare+. The wife's 5 year old iPad volume controls stopped working. Replaced under AppleCare+. An
iPhone battery that went below 80% after 3 years. Replaced under AppleCare+.
Before you say none of this would have happened with an Android device
think twice. An ASUS Android tablet that burned out 2 power supplies,
then discarded. Another Android tablet that just plain bricked. Tossed
it. Android phone or two that had cracked screens. Multiple Android
phones and tablets that only got one or 2 years of OS updates. No nearby service center.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:Bullshit.
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work the
way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at home
with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying to bend
the computer to your will and accept using it in the way that it's been designed.
On 2025-10-17, Tom Elam <thomas.e.elam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:44 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the Apple
stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage beyond 2 years. >>>
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price, and you
wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles me. They >>> can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay
extra for that. Just retarded.
Yes I do pay extra. I dropped an older iPhone in the toilet. Bricked it.
Replaced under AppleCare+. I dropped an iPad on concrete with no case on
it. Bricked. Replaced under AppleCare+. Had an iPad screen crack while
it was in my briefcase. Replaced under AppleCare+. The wife's 5 year old
iPad volume controls stopped working. Replaced under AppleCare+. An
iPhone battery that went below 80% after 3 years. Replaced under AppleCare+. >>
Before you say none of this would have happened with an Android device
think twice. An ASUS Android tablet that burned out 2 power supplies,
then discarded. Another Android tablet that just plain bricked. Tossed
it. Android phone or two that had cracked screens. Multiple Android
phones and tablets that only got one or 2 years of OS updates. No nearby
service center.
Apple company support is second to none. Even if you don't have AppleCare and happen
to have an issue with an Apple device, the Apple Store will generally offer you a deal
to sign up for AppleCare on the spot and it will cost less or just slightly more than the
cost of the repair.
I've had minor repairs to an iPhone and iWatch so things may be different if you
have a fried MacBook system board, but overall I have found Apple quite pleasant to deal with.
The Apple ecosystem is different, that's for sure. However from an empirical view, it's no
more difficult to use, as a user (lol!) than Windows or Linux for that matter.I agree it might not
be for everyone, but in terms of difficulty there really is no difference or the differences
are so minor as not to matter much.
One thing I do not see mentioned is the resale value of Apple devices.
I have had many iPhones as well as Android phones and Apple devices retain their
value far better than Android IMHO.
I agree with the others, use what suits your personality and have fun. Arguing over which is better is fruitless because there is no "better" for everyone.
It depends.
On 2025-10-17 13:31, Alan K. wrote:
On 10/17/25 4:06 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:I wonder why the same can't be said for Windows 11.
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:Bullshit.
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using >>>>>>>>> it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no >>>>>>>>> coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a >>>>>>>>> GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the >>>>>>> mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities. >>>>>
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work the >>>> way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at home >>> with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying to bend
the computer to your will and accept using it in the way that it's been
designed.
It absolutely can.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:29:31 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <vOwIQ.36959$DOhc.11914@fx06.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
Fair enough. If you find an example I would love to hear it. If not,
well, somehow my day will not be ruined. LOL!
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:38:05 PM MST, "Alan" wrote <10cu5uu$1b918$5@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-10-17 09:57, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:28 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 10:44:50 -0400
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the
Apple stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage
beyond 2 years.
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price,
and you wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it
baffles me. They can't even guarantee an overpriced product will
last, unless you pay extra for that. Just retarded.
It's a whole different business model; just leave the Apple guys
alone. They are "happy" or "suckers" - it depends on what where you
sit.
You have a point, they're never going to listen to me, because they
are so averse to Windows and/or Linux.
I'm not "averse" to either of them, dipshit.
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many
opportunities to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it when
necessary.
That to me is the way to be -- use whatever works best / is available.
Good to have at least basic familiarity with all three. And, really,
these days if you are relatively tech focused they are similar enough
to get basic work done on whatever is there.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 1:06:55 PM MST, "Sn!pe" wrote <1rkd92n.15d7iup1rs3xw2N%snipeco.2@gmail.com>:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:Bullshit.
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using >>>>>>>> it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a >>>>>>>> GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with
generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work
the way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at
home with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying
to bend the computer to your will and accept using it in the way that
it's been designed.
Do you remember specifics of any of these challenges?
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at home with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying to bend
the computer to your will and accept using it in the way that it's been designed.
Do you remember specifics of any of these challenges?
I tend to prefer macOS, but there are quirks that bother me. Hello Pages
... can you please get your tabs / toolbars to be consistent on ALL the
tabs? Same with Numbers and Keynote.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 06:28, Joel W. Crump wrote:
…
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in the way
that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
Old Joel is going to be in a real bag of hurt next time he gets a new (or new-to-him) car.
…because the controls & buttons layouts vary not only by Make, but also by Model and Year.
-hh
On 2025-10-17, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:LOL !
On 2025-10-17 06:28, Joel W. Crump wrote:
…
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in the way
that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
Old Joel is going to be in a real bag of hurt next time he gets a new (or
new-to-him) car.
…because the controls & buttons layouts vary not only by Make, but also by >> Model and Year.
-hh
There is no question about that.
My 24 Mustang is basically a computer on wheels.
Pretty much everything is controlled through the touch screen.
It took me a heck of a time getting used to it however once properly set up
I rarely need to change anything on the fly and I like the ability to customize
things like the gauge display. Want it to look like a Cobra? Foxbody?Race track?
etc it's easy peasy and fun to play around with.
I was reluctant at first but now that I have gotten used to it why deal with an oil pressure gauge with a hose running into the engine compartment like
my 72 Dodge Hemi had?
There is no way I personally want to return to that technology.
Things are just to smooth, informative and easy these days.
Until they break of course :)
That's what service contracts are for.
Still better than a hose leaking oil all voer the interior of the car though.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 9:20:06 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote <mlf8lmF540uU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 17/10/2025 17:00, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:47:31 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<7GsIQ.518186$7Ika.237806@fx17.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 10:37 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/17/2025 9:35 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/16/2025 12:37 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 15:07, Joel W. Crump wrote:
Apple in terms of the Mac
product line is a cult because no one would use it unless they >>>>>>>> really don't like Windows and/or Linux. It's quirkware. It's >>>>>>>> for people with brains that are not up to speed. And that's
why it costs so much, you're getting speshul treatment.
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS
qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird
people love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there
are certain very specific professional applications that are
well-made for it, high-end video editing and so forth. My
biggest problem with it is the prices, though, because I
recognize that weird people genuinely like the UI, but they're
paying a serious premium to get it.
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day.
There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you
are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as
difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it.
Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence
to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I
started working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and
UNIX terminals. I literally did not know where the on switch was to
any of them. I did know the older Apple II systems. In any case, my
job was to help others with using software -- so no matter the
system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a good job and by
the end of my college career I was running a cluster of education
labs and teaching high school students on weekends (though Upward
Bound).
A great way to learn! 🙂
True.
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and
software and figuring out what others were finding challenging. And
that was when things were changing fairly quickly, at least in the
PC world (Windows came into prominence then). Even a bit later when
Windows 95 came out, I was working with a large school district and
United Way as a sysop but also in charge of training. Then moved to
Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training (mostly on OSs
and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at tech
are, like all of us, shaded by my experience, but my experience has
largely been about figuring things out and teaching. Or when doing
tech work for small schools / businesses finding cheap ways to do
what most would need more money to do.
All good experience, but NOT in the same league as most other folk on
the ACW group! ;-)
Many are "Professionals"!
I am a professional teacher. And tech.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 9:30:53 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <1buIQ.49802$l4B6.23320@fx42.iad>:You mean like booting to safe mode which a tech lik you had no idea how
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it.
Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence
to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I
started working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and
UNIX terminals. I literally did not know where the on switch was to
any of them. I did know the older Apple II systems. In any case, my
job was to help others with using software -- so no matter the
system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a good job and by
the end of my college career I was running a cluster of education
labs and teaching high school students on weekends (though Upward
Bound).
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and
software and figuring out what others were finding challenging. And
that was when things were changing fairly quickly, at least in the
PC world (Windows came into prominence then). Even a bit later when
Windows 95 came out, I was working with a large school district and
United Way as a sysop but also in charge of training. Then moved to
Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training (mostly on OSs
and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at tech
are, like all of us, shaded by my experience, but my experience has
largely been about figuring things out and teaching. Or when doing
tech work for small schools / businesses finding cheap ways to do
what most would need more money to do.
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
These days they do have some "hidden" features -- hidden behind the
Option Key and the like,
NoBoDy$ Warlock
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day.
There is
nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are coming
from
Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it.
Not
so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the
UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from LSD
use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It
drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do something, I
always get lost, there's no button to flip between apps like on a
Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting me to know what I'm
doing with the POS.
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in the way
that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
On 2025-10-17 07:00, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 9:41 AM, David B. wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It
drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do something,
I always get lost, there's no button to flip between apps like on a
Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting me to know what I'm >>>> doing with the POS.
Simply swipe all the Apps off the screen from right to left until you
reach "The End" where ALL the apps are shown, together with a Search
box at the top!
Easy!
Samsung just lets me pull up a screen where I can flip between
everything running, without any hassle.
iOS (you get that Android is actually not even consistent between
different smartphone makers, right) let's you just flick up from the
bottom to return to the home screen...
...or pull up and hold to see a list your apps in order of last use.
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day.
There is
nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are coming >>>>>> from
Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. >>>>> Not
so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the >>>>> UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from LSD
use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example,
though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
On 2025-10-17 09:57, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:28 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 10:44:50 -0400
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
[One must] pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles me. >>>> They
can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay
extra for that. Just retarded.
It's a whole different business model; just leave the Apple guys alone.
They are "happy" or "suckers" - it depends on what where you sit.
You have a point, they're never going to listen to me, because they
are so averse to Windows and/or Linux.
I'm not "averse" to either of them, dipshit.
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many opportunities
to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it when necessary.
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question? If
they weren't brain-damaged from LSD, as Jobs admitted being a user of.
I know about LSD, having used it myself, but I also used other stuff
like MDMA, to not just be a dumb burnout nerd, like Jobs.
On 2025-10-17 06:23, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/16/2025 1:28 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I also have a Toyota Corolla -- there are definitely cheaper cars,
but I like
the reliability and the features that Toyota offers.
Corollas (or Elantras) are great and worth it.
Do not know about Elantras but Corollas are amazing. Not super high
end, but
they keep their value very well because they last very well.
I had always wanted a Corolla, until I saw the Elantra my mom bought
this year, I get to drive it a fair bit when we're together, and I am
sold on them.
I'm sure the controls in the driver's position aren't all exactly the same...
...so how do you deal with the "quirkware" of that?
:-)
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many opportunities
to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it when necessary.
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the
typical Mac user is brain dead.
On 10/17/2025 3:38 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:57, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:28 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 10:44:50 -0400
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
[One must] pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles me.
They
can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay >>>>> extra for that. Just retarded.
It's a whole different business model; just leave the Apple guys alone. >>>> They are "happy" or "suckers" - it depends on what where you sit.
You have a point, they're never going to listen to me, because they
are so averse to Windows and/or Linux.
I'm not "averse" to either of them, dipshit.
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many opportunities
to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it when necessary.
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the
typical Mac user is brain dead.
On 10/17/2025 3:39 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 06:23, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/16/2025 1:28 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I also have a Toyota Corolla -- there are definitely cheaper cars, >>>>>> but I like
the reliability and the features that Toyota offers.
Corollas (or Elantras) are great and worth it.
Do not know about Elantras but Corollas are amazing. Not super high
end, but
they keep their value very well because they last very well.
I had always wanted a Corolla, until I saw the Elantra my mom bought
this year, I get to drive it a fair bit when we're together, and I am
sold on them.
I'm sure the controls in the driver's position aren't all exactly the
same...
...so how do you deal with the "quirkware" of that?
:-)
True, it is very inconsistent between makers, one just has to hope it's relatively intuitive. Any new vehicle will likely take some getting
used to.
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
Bullshit.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work the
way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
On 2025-10-17 12:28, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 07:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:37 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you
are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as
difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it.
Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to
the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
And you don't need any more training to learn to use macOS or iOS
than you do for any other GUI.
It was hard, for me, with some of the apps, Apple is just weird. But
I could understand that some people relate to it, because people have
differences, but then they have to pay through the nose for access.
Maybe you're just stupid.
And like a lot of stupid people, you assume everyone else is stupid (and
not you), so if they make a choice that you disagree with, it can only
be because they've been duped.
Clue time, nitwit:
When people stick with a product over years if not decades, it's because
it works well for them.
Second clue time:
I've spent the last 35 years of my life using computers, and selling,
and supporting Macs and PCs.
In all that time, I've recommended using Macs to literally hundreds of people and only two (yes: just 2!) have ever wanted to go back to using Windows.
Many have literally come back to thank me for selling them a more
expensive solution.
On 10/17/2025 2:48 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 2:41 PM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:44 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the
Apple stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage
beyond 2 years.
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price, and
you wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles
me. They can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last,
unless you pay extra for that. Just retarded.
Yes I do pay extra. I dropped an older iPhone in the toilet. Bricked
it. Replaced under AppleCare+. I dropped an iPad on concrete with no
case on it. Bricked. Replaced under AppleCare+. Had an iPad screen
crack while it was in my briefcase. Replaced under AppleCare+. The
wife's 5 year old iPad volume controls stopped working. Replaced
under AppleCare+. An iPhone battery that went below 80% after 3
years. Replaced under AppleCare+.
Before you say none of this would have happened with an Android
device think twice. An ASUS Android tablet that burned out 2 power
supplies, then discarded. Another Android tablet that just plain
bricked. Tossed it. Android phone or two that had cracked screens.
Multiple Android phones and tablets that only got one or 2 years of
OS updates. No nearby service center.
I guess if you put your devices through such hell that they fall in
toilets and get broken, it might be worth it, but I try to avoid such
problems. Not to say I've been perfect on that, but knock on wood, my
Galaxy S21 is four years old and didn't break when I dropped it a time
or two. Wouldn't be as confident about knock-off brands.
I've dropped iPads with cases on them many times, none broke. The one
that did break was removed from its case so I could put it in an
aircraft mount. I made the mistake of not putting it back on the case
before taking it out of the aircraft. Never done that again.
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward theI can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. Not >>>> so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the UI. >>>> I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I started
working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and UNIX terminals. I
literally did not know where the on switch was to any of them. I did know the
older Apple II systems. In any case, my job was to help others with using >>> software -- so no matter the system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a
good job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of
education labs and teaching high school students on weekends (though Upward >>> Bound).
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and software and
figuring out what others were finding challenging. And that was when things >>> were changing fairly quickly, at least in the PC world (Windows came into >>> prominence then). Even a bit later when Windows 95 came out, I was working >>> with a large school district and United Way as a sysop but also in charge of
training. Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training
(mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at tech are, like
all of us, shaded by my experience, but my experience has largely been about
figuring things out and teaching. Or when doing tech work for small schools /
businesses finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money to do. >>
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that there's
anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
These days they do have some "hidden" features -- hidden behind the Option Key
and the like, but overall I find many are able to more quickly use them. This is dated, but back in 2000 and the few years before when working at Intuit I taught Mac users how to use Windows and vice versa. There were certainly things the Mac users appreciated about Windows, but time and time again I heard from the Windows users how they were amazed at how intuitive Macs were.
That was before macOS (OS X), so maybe things are different now? Certainly there are a LOT of differences in the Mac world (and Windows has grown a lot over that time, too).
Curious if you have any specific tasks you are thinking of? I used to compare the common workflows for mundane things (say printing a lesson plan or recipe). Maybe you have something like that? Or not. Even if we disagree you are sharing an opinion, as am I, and all is good.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 1:52:48 PM MST, "Alan" wrote <10cuab0$1cia1$1@dont-email.me>:When you add "for a Windows or Linux user", you completely misunderstand
On 2025-10-17 13:31, Alan K. wrote:
On 10/17/25 4:06 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:I wonder why the same can't be said for Windows 11.
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:Bullshit.
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using >>>>>>>>>> it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no >>>>>>>>>> coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a >>>>>>>>>> GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the >>>>>>>> mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that >>>>>>>> there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities. >>>>>>
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work the >>>>> way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at home >>>> with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying to bend >>>> the computer to your will and accept using it in the way that it's been >>>> designed.
It absolutely can.
Things are "more different" on macOS. For example, by default there’s no visible "right click" on their mice —- you have to flip a switch in Settings
to enable it. Even on their laptops, it's a two-finger click instead of a corner tap. I actually prefer that to the location-based trackpad "right click", but without any instructions, it's not "intuitive" for a Windows or Linux user.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:22:53 PM MST, "Alan" wrote <10cu52d$1b105$3@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I
started working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and
UNIX terminals. I literally did not know where the on switch was
to any of them. I did know the older Apple II systems. In any
case, my job was to help others with using software -- so no
matter the system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a good
job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of
education labs and teaching high school students on weekends
(though Upward Bound).
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and
software and figuring out what others were finding challenging.
And that was when things were changing fairly quickly, at least in
the PC world (Windows came into prominence then). Even a bit later
when Windows 95 came out, I was working with a large school
district and United Way as a sysop but also in charge of training.
Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training
(mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at
tech are, like all of us, shaded by my experience, but my
experience has largely been about figuring things out and
teaching. Or when doing tech work for small schools / businesses
finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money to do.
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
He hates Macs. I tend to prefer them for a lot of things. He and I get along.
That is how it should be.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:29:31 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <vOwIQ.36959$DOhc.11914@fx06.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
Fair enough. If you find an example I would love to hear it. If not, well, somehow my day will not be ruined. LOL!
On 10/17/2025 3:46 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
Bullshit.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work the
way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
I can learn most Windows or Linux software without study, without real effort. I get lost with a lot of Mac apps. It's counterintuitive.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:26:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <hLwIQ.36957$DOhc.6472@fx06.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 3:14 PM, Alan wrote:
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird people
love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there are certain
very specific professional applications that are well-made for it,
high-end video editing and so forth. My biggest problem with it is
the prices, though, because I recognize that weird people genuinely
like the UI, but they're paying a serious premium to get it.
I asked you to define "quirkware".
You never answer the question you've been asked.
Hint:
You not knowing how to use something does not mean that thing is "mind-
warping" or "quirkware".
I can't explain it in detail, off the top of my head, I'm expecting
people to have seen a Mac before, to recognize what I mean by
"counterintuitive".
I do not... but that is OK. We each have different ways of thinking. Here, a bit of a tangent to make a point.
As a teen I went to arcades with friends. I was never that good at MOST games... but I found this game super easy (Assault):
https://youtu.be/ZJpApMO5BAo
For a lot of people the perspective of that game seems to make it harder. You turn left and the world turns right -- the tank never moves on the screen. I get how that can be "weird", but for me it fit the way my brain works. The game was super easy and I often beat all levels on one quarter. Good, I did not want to spend much money on games anyway. LOL!
The point being I was not right and my friends wrong. They were not right and me wrong. Our minds just work in different ways and we each found different things "intuitive".
I would say if you think of any specific examples I would love to see them. I can point to where macOS does things which I can see would confuse a new user -- while I like the simplicity of drag and drop installs, I can see when there
are no instructions that can be odd and confusing to users. Open a disk image,
and there may or may not be instructions to drag and then when you do... what then? I have the Applications folder on my dock, set to show new items at the top. But that is not by default.
Especially with newer / bigger monitors the one menu to rule them all can be odd -- you have a lot of travel to get to the menu and your window might be far from it. The one-menu method was demonstrably more efficient "back in the day", but I am not convinced that is still the case. And Apple has made moved to make the menu less needed -- showing they seem to have some level of agreement.
But overall I think macOS offers a more consistent environment. So where I can
see places where I might agree, I do not agree with your overall point.
On 10/17/2025 4:55 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:29:31 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<vOwIQ.36959$DOhc.11914@fx06.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
Fair enough. If you find an example I would love to hear it. If not,
well,
somehow my day will not be ruined. LOL!
I'd have to visit the Apple Store, or something, to get an example from using a Mac, but of course it's a lot easier to have one in one's own possession, which is why I purchased the Snow Leopard-era MacBook before.
On 10/17/2025 4:44 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not
so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to
the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I started >>>> working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and UNIX
terminals. I
literally did not know where the on switch was to any of them. I did
know the
older Apple II systems. In any case, my job was to help others with
using
software -- so no matter the system I was tasked with figuring it
out. I did a
good job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of >>>> education labs and teaching high school students on weekends (though
Upward
Bound).
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and
software and
figuring out what others were finding challenging. And that was when
things
were changing fairly quickly, at least in the PC world (Windows came
into
prominence then). Even a bit later when Windows 95 came out, I was
working
with a large school district and United Way as a sysop but also in
charge of
training. Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again,
training
(mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at tech
are, like
all of us, shaded by my experience, but my experience has largely
been about
figuring things out and teaching. Or when doing tech work for small
schools /
businesses finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money
to do.
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that there's
anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
These days they do have some "hidden" features -- hidden behind the
Option Key
and the like, but overall I find many are able to more quickly use
them. This
is dated, but back in 2000 and the few years before when working at
Intuit I
taught Mac users how to use Windows and vice versa. There were certainly
things the Mac users appreciated about Windows, but time and time again I
heard from the Windows users how they were amazed at how intuitive
Macs were.
That was before macOS (OS X), so maybe things are different now?
Certainly
there are a LOT of differences in the Mac world (and Windows has grown
a lot
over that time, too).
Curious if you have any specific tasks you are thinking of? I used to
compare
the common workflows for mundane things (say printing a lesson plan or
recipe). Maybe you have something like that? Or not. Even if we
disagree you
are sharing an opinion, as am I, and all is good.
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top
menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows software has,
and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard toBullshit.
explain without a specific example, it's been too long since I've used a
Mac to give one, but that's what I recall.
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day.
There is
nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are coming >>>>>> from
Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. >>>>> Not
so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to
the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from LSD
use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example, though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.So it's "common"...
On 10/17/2025 3:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 12:28, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 07:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:37 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you
are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as >>>>>> difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. >>>>> Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence
to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
And you don't need any more training to learn to use macOS or iOS
than you do for any other GUI.
It was hard, for me, with some of the apps, Apple is just weird. But
I could understand that some people relate to it, because people have
differences, but then they have to pay through the nose for access.
Maybe you're just stupid.
And like a lot of stupid people, you assume everyone else is stupid
(and not you), so if they make a choice that you disagree with, it can
only be because they've been duped.
Clue time, nitwit:
When people stick with a product over years if not decades, it's
because it works well for them.
Second clue time:
I've spent the last 35 years of my life using computers, and selling,
and supporting Macs and PCs.
In all that time, I've recommended using Macs to literally hundreds of
people and only two (yes: just 2!) have ever wanted to go back to
using Windows.
Many have literally come back to thank me for selling them a more
expensive solution.
I guess. I can accept that I'm "stupid" about Mac stuff, 'cause it frequently didn't make sense to me. I almost liked it, when I bought
the MacBook with Snow Leopard in 2010, but the novelty wore off, and
certain things were too weird. Then when I gave it away to a friend who liked laptops, with Win7 on it, the demands on hardware from Windows
burned it out in a matter of months. Total loss, but at least I got to experience OS X/macOS, it was worth it.
On 10/17/2025 3:36 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 07:00, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 9:41 AM, David B. wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It
drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do something, >>>>> I always get lost, there's no button to flip between apps like on a >>>>> Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting me to know what
I'm doing with the POS.
Simply swipe all the Apps off the screen from right to left until you
reach "The End" where ALL the apps are shown, together with a Search
box at the top!
Easy!
Samsung just lets me pull up a screen where I can flip between
everything running, without any hassle.
iOS (you get that Android is actually not even consistent between
different smartphone makers, right) let's you just flick up from the
bottom to return to the home screen...
...or pull up and hold to see a list your apps in order of last use.
Why make it so tricky? It's retarded.
On 10/17/2025 4:57 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:26:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<hLwIQ.36957$DOhc.6472@fx06.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 3:14 PM, Alan wrote:
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird people >>>>> love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there are certain >>>>> very specific professional applications that are well-made for it,
high-end video editing and so forth. My biggest problem with it is >>>>> the prices, though, because I recognize that weird people genuinely
like the UI, but they're paying a serious premium to get it.
I asked you to define "quirkware".
You never answer the question you've been asked.
Hint:
You not knowing how to use something does not mean that thing is "mind- >>>> warping" or "quirkware".
I can't explain it in detail, off the top of my head, I'm expecting
people to have seen a Mac before, to recognize what I mean by
"counterintuitive".
I do not... but that is OK. We each have different ways of thinking.
Here, a
bit of a tangent to make a point.
As a teen I went to arcades with friends. I was never that good at MOST
games... but I found this game super easy (Assault):
https://youtu.be/ZJpApMO5BAo
For a lot of people the perspective of that game seems to make it
harder. You
turn left and the world turns right -- the tank never moves on the
screen. I
get how that can be "weird", but for me it fit the way my brain works.
The
game was super easy and I often beat all levels on one quarter. Good,
I did
not want to spend much money on games anyway. LOL!
The point being I was not right and my friends wrong. They were not
right and
me wrong. Our minds just work in different ways and we each found
different
things "intuitive".
I would say if you think of any specific examples I would love to see
them. I
can point to where macOS does things which I can see would confuse a
new user
-- while I like the simplicity of drag and drop installs, I can see
when there
are no instructions that can be odd and confusing to users. Open a
disk image,
and there may or may not be instructions to drag and then when you
do... what
then? I have the Applications folder on my dock, set to show new items
at the
top. But that is not by default.
Especially with newer / bigger monitors the one menu to rule them all
can be
odd -- you have a lot of travel to get to the menu and your window
might be
far from it. The one-menu method was demonstrably more efficient "back
in the
day", but I am not convinced that is still the case. And Apple has
made moved
to make the menu less needed -- showing they seem to have some level of
agreement.
But overall I think macOS offers a more consistent environment. So
where I can
see places where I might agree, I do not agree with your overall point.
I see what you're saying, actually, that Apple strives to have a
consistent interface between apps, but that's exactly where I get lost
with it, somehow it's consistently obtuse. Microsoft just has more
energy in developing, more robust UIs.
On 10/17/2025 3:35 PM, Alan wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It
drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do
something, I always get lost, there's no button to flip between
apps like on a Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting
me to know what I'm doing with the POS.
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in
the way that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question?
On 10/17/2025 3:38 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:57, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:28 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 10:44:50 -0400
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
[One must] pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it baffles >>>>> me. They
can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay >>>>> extra for that. Just retarded.
It's a whole different business model; just leave the Apple guys alone. >>>> They are "happy" or "suckers" - it depends on what where you sit.
You have a point, they're never going to listen to me, because they
are so averse to Windows and/or Linux.
I'm not "averse" to either of them, dipshit.
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many
opportunities to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it when
necessary.
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the
typical Mac user is brain dead.
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question? If
they weren't brain-damaged from LSD, as Jobs admitted being a user of.
I know about LSD, having used it myself, but I also used other stuff
like MDMA, to not just be a dumb burnout nerd, like Jobs.
This does you no credit, Joel.
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many opportunities
to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it when necessary.
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the
typical Mac user is brain dead.
What proportion of Mac users do you think are atypical, Joel?
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the Apple
stores was a stroke of genius.
So is Applecare + coverage beyond 2 years.--
I had always wanted a Corolla, until I saw the Elantra my mom bought
this year, I get to drive it a fair bit when we're together, and I
am sold on them.
I'm sure the controls in the driver's position aren't all exactly the
same...
...so how do you deal with the "quirkware" of that?
:-)
True, it is very inconsistent between makers, one just has to hope
it's relatively intuitive. Any new vehicle will likely take some
getting used to.
Funny how you can see how that's true for cars...
...but completely lose it when it's about technology.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
I can learn most Windows or Linux software without study, without real
effort. I get lost with a lot of Mac apps. It's counterintuitive.
Because you've learned lots before.
When you started out with both of them, you were just as clueless.
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top
menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows
software has,
Really? How exactly so?
How does Windows "UI flow" without the menubar?
and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard to explain without a
specific example, it's been too long since I've used a Mac to give
one, but that's what I recall.
Bullshit.
Maybe you're just stupid.
And like a lot of stupid people, you assume everyone else is stupid
(and not you), so if they make a choice that you disagree with, it
can only be because they've been duped.
Clue time, nitwit:
When people stick with a product over years if not decades, it's
because it works well for them.
Second clue time:
I've spent the last 35 years of my life using computers, and selling,
and supporting Macs and PCs.
In all that time, I've recommended using Macs to literally hundreds
of people and only two (yes: just 2!) have ever wanted to go back to
using Windows.
Many have literally come back to thank me for selling them a more
expensive solution.
I guess. I can accept that I'm "stupid" about Mac stuff, 'cause it
frequently didn't make sense to me. I almost liked it, when I bought
the MacBook with Snow Leopard in 2010, but the novelty wore off, and
certain things were too weird. Then when I gave it away to a friend
who liked laptops, with Win7 on it, the demands on hardware from
Windows burned it out in a matter of months. Total loss, but at least
I got to experience OS X/macOS, it was worth it.
Hey, here's a wild thought:
Since you admit you don't know anything about how Macs actually operate...
...stop pontificating about them.
On 2025-10-17 17:22, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:36 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 07:00, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 9:41 AM, David B. wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It
drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do
something, I always get lost, there's no button to flip between
apps like on a Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting me >>>>>> to know what I'm doing with the POS.
Simply swipe all the Apps off the screen from right to left until you >>>>> reach "The End" where ALL the apps are shown, together with a
Search box at the top!
Easy!
Samsung just lets me pull up a screen where I can flip between
everything running, without any hassle.
iOS (you get that Android is actually not even consistent between
different smartphone makers, right) let's you just flick up from the
bottom to return to the home screen...
...or pull up and hold to see a list your apps in order of last use.
Why make it so tricky? It's retarded.
Why do you imagine that "what I don't know" (personally)...
...equals "tricky"?
On 2025-10-17 17:21, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:35 PM, Alan wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It
drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do
something, I always get lost, there's no button to flip between
apps like on a Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting
me to know what I'm doing with the POS.
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in
the way that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question?
What "features" would those be?
On 2025-10-17 17:24, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:38 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:57, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:28 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 10:44:50 -0400
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
[One must] pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it
baffles me. They
can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay >>>>>> extra for that. Just retarded.
It's a whole different business model; just leave the Apple guys
alone.
They are "happy" or "suckers" - it depends on what where you sit.
You have a point, they're never going to listen to me, because they
are so averse to Windows and/or Linux.
I'm not "averse" to either of them, dipshit.
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many
opportunities to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it when
necessary.
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the
typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every
day. There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS
unless you are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other
way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from
LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example, though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:23:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead
<pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from
LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example,
though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote in news:68f0426a$2$10360$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com:
Key word. I was a Linux user (and am backing to tinkering). I ran
computer Linux computer labs at multiple schools -- the fact I could
run it on pretty much any working donated hardware and then hand out
OS media for the cost of the media was amazing. I also had Windows
and macOS for students to work with. They could use what they wanted
and pick what worked best for them (and their teachers). To me that
made sense: let them be exposed to multiple systems and learn at
least the basics of each.
You were never a serious Linux user snit.
Life is too important to take seriously.
Deflection.
You used Linux as a topic to troll and push your Crapple idiocy on
people.
C.O.L.A is teeming with your trolling so this is simply BAU for you.
Oh and just a little technical education for you snit. Traditional
drives are not called "spinny drives" but SPINNER's.
https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/o0gwcr/did_something_happen_
that_makes_spinny_hard/
Point taken.
In my area the term spinner is used.
However, I'll give you this one.
You need to learn.
Learn slang?
Bless your heart.
How the fuck did you earn a Master's degree in computer technology or
something similar when you haven't a clue what the fuck you are
talking about?
At least I am not a hate filled trolling sock user like you.
Doesn't answer the question.
Pointing out your lies is not hateful.
It's simply your poor,last ditch effort at compensation.
Hopefully the students you taught have long forgotten your teaching.
Assuming you being a teacher isn't just another one of your
fabrications.
Whatever Sockboy.
Wrong again snit.
Accusing people of being socks is a sign or signal that you have no response.
By your won posting history, anyone who disagrees with you, which hovers near 100% of posters, is a sock of some sort.
Talk is cheap snit.
Now prove your accusations.
You will run.
You always do.
Oh, and don't bother with your lame attempt to set fup to alt.test
because my script picks it up deletes it and updates the followup line
with the groups the OP posted to.
Completely automatic.
You lose again snit.
On 10/17/2025 8:48 PM, Alan wrote:
Because you've learned lots before.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
I can learn most Windows or Linux software without study, without
real effort. I get lost with a lot of Mac apps. It's counterintuitive. >>
When you started out with both of them, you were just as clueless.
That's really not it, there's a fundamental difference in the UI with
Mac software.
On 10/17/2025 8:55 PM, Alan wrote:
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top
menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most
Windows software has,
Really? How exactly so?
How does Windows "UI flow" without the menubar?
It's just more intuitive, to me, better thought out by the designer of
the interface.
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:23:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead
<pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every
day. There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS
unless you are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other >>>>>>>> way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from
LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example,
though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make itYou don't understand that "quirky" doesn't mean "what I'm not used to"...
normal, instead of quirky like that.
On 10/17/2025 9:00 PM, Alan wrote:
Maybe you're just stupid.
And like a lot of stupid people, you assume everyone else is stupid
(and not you), so if they make a choice that you disagree with, it
can only be because they've been duped.
Clue time, nitwit:
When people stick with a product over years if not decades, it's
because it works well for them.
Second clue time:
I've spent the last 35 years of my life using computers, and
selling, and supporting Macs and PCs.
In all that time, I've recommended using Macs to literally hundreds
of people and only two (yes: just 2!) have ever wanted to go back to
using Windows.
Many have literally come back to thank me for selling them a more
expensive solution.
I guess. I can accept that I'm "stupid" about Mac stuff, 'cause it
frequently didn't make sense to me. I almost liked it, when I bought
the MacBook with Snow Leopard in 2010, but the novelty wore off, and
certain things were too weird. Then when I gave it away to a friend
who liked laptops, with Win7 on it, the demands on hardware from
Windows burned it out in a matter of months. Total loss, but at
least I got to experience OS X/macOS, it was worth it.
Hey, here's a wild thought:
Since you admit you don't know anything about how Macs actually
operate...
...stop pontificating about them.
I know enough to have an opinion. Apple has weaker minds, developing software for an overpriced, proprietary platform.APPLE has weaker minds?
On 2025-10-17 18:37, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 8:48 PM, Alan wrote:
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
I can learn most Windows or Linux software without study, without
real effort. I get lost with a lot of Mac apps. It's
counterintuitive.
Because you've learned lots before.
When you started out with both of them, you were just as clueless.
That's really not it, there's a fundamental difference in the UI
with Mac software.
No. There really is not.
And despite your claim, you admit you're not even able to describe
that that "fundamental difference" is supposed to be.
On 10/17/2025 9:01 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 17:22, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:36 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 07:00, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 9:41 AM, David B. wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It >>>>>>> drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do
something, I always get lost, there's no button to flip between >>>>>>> apps like on a Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting >>>>>>> me to know what I'm doing with the POS.
Simply swipe all the Apps off the screen from right to left until you >>>>>> reach "The End" where ALL the apps are shown, together with a
Search box at the top!
Easy!
Samsung just lets me pull up a screen where I can flip between
everything running, without any hassle.
iOS (you get that Android is actually not even consistent between
different smartphone makers, right) let's you just flick up from the
bottom to return to the home screen...
...or pull up and hold to see a list your apps in order of last use.
Why make it so tricky? It's retarded.
Why do you imagine that "what I don't know" (personally)...
...equals "tricky"?
It's not imagining, it's observing. The iPhone is missing features.
On 2025-10-17 19:05, vallor wrote:
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:23:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead
<pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every
day. There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS
unless you are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other >>>>>>>> way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using >>>>>>> it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from
LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example,
though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
It's different than Windows... ...but is it worse?
And with a menubar that is "all the way at the top"...
...all you need to do is "fling" your mouse upward and you always arrive
on the menubar.
It requires LESS precision than a menubar attached to a window.
They should at least have a per-user setting to make itYou don't understand that "quirky" doesn't mean "what I'm not used to"...
normal, instead of quirky like that.
...do you?
I can accept that I'm "stupid" about Mac stuff, 'cause it
frequently didn't make sense to me. I almost liked it, when I
bought the MacBook with Snow Leopard in 2010, but the novelty wore
off, and certain things were too weird. Then when I gave it away to >>>> a friend who liked laptops, with Win7 on it, the demands on hardware
from Windows burned it out in a matter of months. Total loss, but
at least I got to experience OS X/macOS, it was worth it.
Hey, here's a wild thought:
Since you admit you don't know anything about how Macs actually
operate...
...stop pontificating about them.
I know enough to have an opinion. Apple has weaker minds, developing
software for an overpriced, proprietary platform.
APPLE has weaker minds?
LOLOLLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
Samsung just lets me pull up a screen where I can flip between
everything running, without any hassle.
iOS (you get that Android is actually not even consistent between
different smartphone makers, right) let's you just flick up from
the bottom to return to the home screen...
...or pull up and hold to see a list your apps in order of last use.
Why make it so tricky? It's retarded.
Why do you imagine that "what I don't know" (personally)...
...equals "tricky"?
It's not imagining, it's observing. The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a feature you
can articulate.
Do so now, please.
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day. There is >>>>>> nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are coming from >>>>>> Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. Not >>>>> so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the UI. >>>>> I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate" means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example, though.
It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
On Fri, 10/17/2025 8:18 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day. There is
nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you are coming from >>>>>>> Windows or Android. Going the other way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. Not
so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the UI. >>>>>> I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate" means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example, though. >> It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
I have a PearPC with my old MACOS 10.2 in it. But I don't
know what I did with the files (that's a PowerPC OS running
on an x86 box). It allows the newer part of the OS to work, but it did
not support the execution of Classic that the OS supported.
Maybe you can find a VM with more recent (Intel) OS version
and play with that to find examples of non-discoverable interfaces.
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:23:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead
<pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every
day. There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS
unless you are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other >>>>>>>> way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from
LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example,
though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
On 10/17/2025 9:12 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 17:21, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:35 PM, Alan wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It
drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do
something, I always get lost, there's no button to flip between
apps like on a Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting
me to know what I'm doing with the POS.
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in
the way that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question?
What "features" would those be?
https://i.imgur.com/5nqESxp.jpeg
See the button on the bottom left. When I tap it, I get a screen with
all the running apps to flip between. On an iPhone, it's a tricky
process to navigate between apps.
On 10/17/2025 4:57 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:26:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<hLwIQ.36957$DOhc.6472@fx06.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 3:14 PM, Alan wrote:
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird people
love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there are certain >>>>> very specific professional applications that are well-made for it,
high-end video editing and so forth. My biggest problem with it is
the prices, though, because I recognize that weird people genuinely
like the UI, but they're paying a serious premium to get it.
I asked you to define "quirkware".
You never answer the question you've been asked.
Hint:
You not knowing how to use something does not mean that thing is "mind- >>>> warping" or "quirkware".
I can't explain it in detail, off the top of my head, I'm expecting
people to have seen a Mac before, to recognize what I mean by
"counterintuitive".
I do not... but that is OK. We each have different ways of thinking. Here, a >> bit of a tangent to make a point.
As a teen I went to arcades with friends. I was never that good at MOST
games... but I found this game super easy (Assault):
https://youtu.be/ZJpApMO5BAo
For a lot of people the perspective of that game seems to make it harder. You
turn left and the world turns right -- the tank never moves on the screen. I >> get how that can be "weird", but for me it fit the way my brain works. The >> game was super easy and I often beat all levels on one quarter. Good, I did >> not want to spend much money on games anyway. LOL!
The point being I was not right and my friends wrong. They were not right and
me wrong. Our minds just work in different ways and we each found different >> things "intuitive".
I would say if you think of any specific examples I would love to see them. I
can point to where macOS does things which I can see would confuse a new user
-- while I like the simplicity of drag and drop installs, I can see when there
are no instructions that can be odd and confusing to users. Open a disk image,
and there may or may not be instructions to drag and then when you do... what
then? I have the Applications folder on my dock, set to show new items at the
top. But that is not by default.
Especially with newer / bigger monitors the one menu to rule them all can be >> odd -- you have a lot of travel to get to the menu and your window might be >> far from it. The one-menu method was demonstrably more efficient "back in the
day", but I am not convinced that is still the case. And Apple has made moved
to make the menu less needed -- showing they seem to have some level of
agreement.
But overall I think macOS offers a more consistent environment. So where I can
see places where I might agree, I do not agree with your overall point.
I see what you're saying, actually, that Apple strives to have a
consistent interface between apps, but that's exactly where I get lost
with it, somehow it's consistently obtuse. Microsoft just has more
energy in developing, more robust UIs.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote <10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app to stay open even when you close the last window?
I'm expecting
people to have seen a Mac before, to recognize what I mean by
"counterintuitive".
I do not... but that is OK. We each have different ways of thinking. Here, a
bit of a tangent to make a point.
As a teen I went to arcades with friends. I was never that good at MOST
games... but I found this game super easy (Assault):
https://youtu.be/ZJpApMO5BAo
For a lot of people the perspective of that game seems to make it harder. You
turn left and the world turns right -- the tank never moves on the screen. I
get how that can be "weird", but for me it fit the way my brain works. The >>> game was super easy and I often beat all levels on one quarter. Good, I did >>> not want to spend much money on games anyway. LOL!
The point being I was not right and my friends wrong. They were not right and
me wrong. Our minds just work in different ways and we each found different >>> things "intuitive".
I would say if you think of any specific examples I would love to see them. I
can point to where macOS does things which I can see would confuse a new user
-- while I like the simplicity of drag and drop installs, I can see when there
are no instructions that can be odd and confusing to users. Open a disk image,
and there may or may not be instructions to drag and then when you do... what
then? I have the Applications folder on my dock, set to show new items at the
top. But that is not by default.
Especially with newer / bigger monitors the one menu to rule them all can be
odd -- you have a lot of travel to get to the menu and your window might be >>> far from it. The one-menu method was demonstrably more efficient "back in the
day", but I am not convinced that is still the case. And Apple has made moved
to make the menu less needed -- showing they seem to have some level of
agreement.
But overall I think macOS offers a more consistent environment. So where I can
see places where I might agree, I do not agree with your overall point.
I see what you're saying, actually, that Apple strives to have a
consistent interface between apps, but that's exactly where I get lost
with it, somehow it's consistently obtuse. Microsoft just has more
energy in developing, more robust UIs.
I saw the example of the app staying open even with the last window closing. I
like that feature -- but I can see where it can be confusing. If an app can only have one window it DOES close. But how do you know?
On 10/17/2025 4:55 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:29:31 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<vOwIQ.36959$DOhc.11914@fx06.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
Fair enough. If you find an example I would love to hear it. If not, well, >> somehow my day will not be ruined. LOL!
I'd have to visit the Apple Store, or something, to get an example from
using a Mac, but of course it's a lot easier to have one in one's own possession, which is why I purchased the Snow Leopard-era MacBook before.
On 10/17/2025 4:46 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:22:53 PM MST, "Alan" wrote
<10cu52d$1b105$3@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a
GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I
started working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and
UNIX terminals. I literally did not know where the on switch was
to any of them. I did know the older Apple II systems. In any
case, my job was to help others with using software -- so no
matter the system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a good
job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of
education labs and teaching high school students on weekends
(though Upward Bound).
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and
software and figuring out what others were finding challenging.
And that was when things were changing fairly quickly, at least in
the PC world (Windows came into prominence then). Even a bit later
when Windows 95 came out, I was working with a large school
district and United Way as a sysop but also in charge of training.
Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training
(mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at
tech are, like all of us, shaded by my experience, but my
experience has largely been about figuring things out and
teaching. Or when doing tech work for small schools / businesses
finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money to do.
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward the
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that
there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with generalities.
He hates Macs. I tend to prefer them for a lot of things. He and I get along.
That is how it should be.
I like you and Alan, it should be noted, as people. Alan is a competent debater, and you're a friendly soul with a good mind for this subject of PCs/Macs. A lot of what is said, publicly on the groups, is rhetorical, meant to entertain the wider audience, not just chat between two people.
On 10/17/2025 4:44 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward theI can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using it. Not >>>>> so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no coherence to the UI. >>>>> I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I started >>>> working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and UNIX terminals. I
literally did not know where the on switch was to any of them. I did know the
older Apple II systems. In any case, my job was to help others with using >>>> software -- so no matter the system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a
good job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of >>>> education labs and teaching high school students on weekends (though Upward
Bound).
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and software and
figuring out what others were finding challenging. And that was when things
were changing fairly quickly, at least in the PC world (Windows came into >>>> prominence then). Even a bit later when Windows 95 came out, I was working >>>> with a large school district and United Way as a sysop but also in charge of
training. Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training
(mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at tech are, like
all of us, shaded by my experience, but my experience has largely been about
figuring things out and teaching. Or when doing tech work for small schools /
businesses finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money to do. >>>
mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that there's
anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
These days they do have some "hidden" features -- hidden behind the Option Key
and the like, but overall I find many are able to more quickly use them. This
is dated, but back in 2000 and the few years before when working at Intuit I >> taught Mac users how to use Windows and vice versa. There were certainly
things the Mac users appreciated about Windows, but time and time again I
heard from the Windows users how they were amazed at how intuitive Macs were.
That was before macOS (OS X), so maybe things are different now? Certainly >> there are a LOT of differences in the Mac world (and Windows has grown a lot >> over that time, too).
Curious if you have any specific tasks you are thinking of? I used to compare
the common workflows for mundane things (say printing a lesson plan or
recipe). Maybe you have something like that? Or not. Even if we disagree you >> are sharing an opinion, as am I, and all is good.
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top
menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows software has, and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard to
explain without a specific example, it's been too long since I've used a
Mac to give one, but that's what I recall.
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at home >>> with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying to bend
the computer to your will and accept using it in the way that it's been
designed.
Do you remember specifics of any of these challenges?
I tend to prefer macOS, but there are quirks that bother me. Hello Pages
... can you please get your tabs / toolbars to be consistent on ALL the
tabs? Same with Numbers and Keynote.
Two things baffled me at first: deletion of an object needed the
Command key, as did clicking on URLs.
Both actions are utterly
basic but lacking guidance they were out of reach to this Mac
novice. Fortunately there was plenty of help to be found in
comp.sys.mac.* which in those far-off days still had plenty of
helpful people who were tolerant of know-nothing newbies.
On 10/17/2025 9:12 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 17:21, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:35 PM, Alan wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It
drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do
something, I always get lost, there's no button to flip between
apps like on a Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting
me to know what I'm doing with the POS.
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in
the way that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question?
What "features" would those be?
https://i.imgur.com/5nqESxp.jpeg
See the button on the bottom left. When I tap it, I get a screen with
all the running apps to flip between. On an iPhone, it's a tricky
process to navigate between apps.
On 10/17/2025 11:04 PM, Alan wrote:
Why make it so tricky? It's retarded.Samsung just lets me pull up a screen where I can flip between
everything running, without any hassle.
iOS (you get that Android is actually not even consistent between >>>>>> different smartphone makers, right) let's you just flick up from
the bottom to return to the home screen...
...or pull up and hold to see a list your apps in order of last use. >>>>>
Why do you imagine that "what I don't know" (personally)...
...equals "tricky"?
It's not imagining, it's observing. The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a feature
you can articulate.
Do so now, please.
See my screenshot of my phone, in another post here.
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top
menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows
software has, and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard to
explain without a specific example, it's been too long since I've used a
Mac to give one, but that's what I recall.
With the menu: I get it. With older machines having one menu saved screen real
estate and the distance was small to get to it. And having it at the top makes
it "infinitely tall" and easier / more efficient to use.
But screens have grown. When you have multiple windows and the menu is always at the top left, even for a window on the right, that is awkward. I do not use
menus often -- I use a lot of hot keys and toolbars -- but I *DO* use them, and of course many use them more.
The "infinitely tall" benefit is still there... and I like the search in the "Help" menu. MacOS also has more consistent terms and locations and hot keys in menus -- so there are also advantages. But I absolutely can see where the single menu can be not just confusing for a Windows user but seen as less intuitive -- the controls are not a part of the window where you are trying to
control something.
As far the rest of your comment -- not sure what you mean by "robust".
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question?
What "features" would those be?
https://i.imgur.com/5nqESxp.jpeg
See the button on the bottom left. When I tap it, I get a screen with
all the running apps to flip between. On an iPhone, it's a tricky
process to navigate between apps.
Not tricky at all. Just not understood by you.
And the Android method takes up valuable screen real estate with buttons that are there all the time...
...where as iOS uses (gasp!) gestures!
<https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/2024/06/ios-18-makes-iphone-more- personal-capable-and-intelligent-than-ever/article/Apple-WWDC24-iOS-18- Messages-via-satellite-240610_inline.jpg.large.jpg>
See that horizontal bar at the bottom of the screen?
Well if you flick upward from below that...
...you're back one of the home screens of apps.
If you're not on the first page, then another flick takes you there.
And if you want to move between open apps? Well just flick upward and
hold for a moment. All the running apps will be show so you can flick between them.
The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a feature
you can articulate.
Do so now, please.
See my screenshot of my phone, in another post here.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is implemented.
On 10/17/2025 11:58 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top
menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows
software has, and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard to
explain without a specific example, it's been too long since I've used a >>> Mac to give one, but that's what I recall.
With the menu: I get it. With older machines having one menu saved screen real
estate and the distance was small to get to it. And having it at the top makes
it "infinitely tall" and easier / more efficient to use.
But screens have grown. When you have multiple windows and the menu is always
at the top left, even for a window on the right, that is awkward. I do not use
menus often -- I use a lot of hot keys and toolbars -- but I *DO* use them, >> and of course many use them more.
The "infinitely tall" benefit is still there... and I like the search in the >> "Help" menu. MacOS also has more consistent terms and locations and hot keys >> in menus -- so there are also advantages. But I absolutely can see where the >> single menu can be not just confusing for a Windows user but seen as less
intuitive -- the controls are not a part of the window where you are trying to
control something.
As far the rest of your comment -- not sure what you mean by "robust".
Meaning essentially that Windows developers put more thought into the
GUI, that Mac developers tend to under-utilize UI features such that the
apps have arbitrary ways of handling features, counterintuitive, not
well thought out.
On 2025-10-17 18:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 9:12 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 17:21, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:35 PM, Alan wrote:
My mom has never owned a Mac, but has always used iPhones. It
drives me nuts when she hands it to me and asks me to do
something, I always get lost, there's no button to flip between
apps like on a Samsung. It's retarded. But she keeps expecting
me to know what I'm doing with the POS.
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in
the way that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question?
What "features" would those be?
https://i.imgur.com/5nqESxp.jpeg
See the button on the bottom left. When I tap it, I get a screen with
all the running apps to flip between. On an iPhone, it's a tricky
process to navigate between apps.
Not tricky at all. Just not understood by you.
And the Android method takes up valuable screen real estate with buttons
that are there all the time...
...where as iOS uses (gasp!) gestures!
<https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/2024/06/ios-18-makes-iphone-more-personal-capable-and-intelligent-than-ever/article/Apple-WWDC24-iOS-18-Messages-via-satellite-240610_inline.jpg.large.jpg>
See that horizontal bar at the bottom of the screen?
Well if you flick upward from below that...
...you're back one of the home screens of apps.
If you're not on the first page, then another flick takes you there.
And if you want to move between open apps? Well just flick upward and
hold for a moment. All the running apps will be show so you can flick
between them.
On 10/17/2025 11:51 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I see what you're saying, actually, that Apple strives to have aI'm expecting
people to have seen a Mac before, to recognize what I mean by
"counterintuitive".
I do not... but that is OK. We each have different ways of thinking. Here, a
bit of a tangent to make a point.
As a teen I went to arcades with friends. I was never that good at MOST >>>> games... but I found this game super easy (Assault):
https://youtu.be/ZJpApMO5BAo
For a lot of people the perspective of that game seems to make it harder. You
turn left and the world turns right -- the tank never moves on the screen. I
get how that can be "weird", but for me it fit the way my brain works. The >>>> game was super easy and I often beat all levels on one quarter. Good, I did
not want to spend much money on games anyway. LOL!
The point being I was not right and my friends wrong. They were not right and
me wrong. Our minds just work in different ways and we each found different
things "intuitive".
I would say if you think of any specific examples I would love to see them. I
can point to where macOS does things which I can see would confuse a new user
-- while I like the simplicity of drag and drop installs, I can see when there
are no instructions that can be odd and confusing to users. Open a disk image,
and there may or may not be instructions to drag and then when you do... what
then? I have the Applications folder on my dock, set to show new items at the
top. But that is not by default.
Especially with newer / bigger monitors the one menu to rule them all can be
odd -- you have a lot of travel to get to the menu and your window might be
far from it. The one-menu method was demonstrably more efficient "back in the
day", but I am not convinced that is still the case. And Apple has made moved
to make the menu less needed -- showing they seem to have some level of >>>> agreement.
But overall I think macOS offers a more consistent environment. So where I can
see places where I might agree, I do not agree with your overall point. >>>
consistent interface between apps, but that's exactly where I get lost
with it, somehow it's consistently obtuse. Microsoft just has more
energy in developing, more robust UIs.
I saw the example of the app staying open even with the last window closing. I
like that feature -- but I can see where it can be confusing. If an app can >> only have one window it DOES close. But how do you know?
I think Apple just doesn't dot all the Is and cross all the Ts, so to
speak. It's brain damage.
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app to stay >> open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top
menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows >>>> software has, and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard to
explain without a specific example, it's been too long since I've used a >>>> Mac to give one, but that's what I recall.
With the menu: I get it. With older machines having one menu saved screen real
estate and the distance was small to get to it. And having it at the top makes
it "infinitely tall" and easier / more efficient to use.
But screens have grown. When you have multiple windows and the menu is always
at the top left, even for a window on the right, that is awkward. I do not use
menus often -- I use a lot of hot keys and toolbars -- but I *DO* use them, >>> and of course many use them more.
The "infinitely tall" benefit is still there... and I like the search in the
"Help" menu. MacOS also has more consistent terms and locations and hot keys
in menus -- so there are also advantages. But I absolutely can see where the
single menu can be not just confusing for a Windows user but seen as less >>> intuitive -- the controls are not a part of the window where you are trying to
control something.
As far the rest of your comment -- not sure what you mean by "robust".
Meaning essentially that Windows developers put more thought into the
GUI, that Mac developers tend to under-utilize UI features such that the
apps have arbitrary ways of handling features, counterintuitive, not
well thought out.
I think that is a VERY hard case to make. Sure, there are some things which are not ideal -- and I would even argue macOS has slipped some in UI focus over the last decade. But I just opened Windows 11:
* There is STILL a split between "Settings" and "Control Panel". That is sorta
insane.
* There are things there that seem to require the right click menu (Browser Task Manager in Edge, for example).
* Inconsistencies in if there is a menu at all, and if so if there are even basics like "Edit" which holds copy and paste.
* Save dialogs, by default, have different locations on the sidebar -- even for Paint and Notepad which one would not expect to save in uncommon locations.
* Windows is only now getting QuickLook or something like it.
* Look at the list I provided earlier of things macOS does have: proxy icons, ability to rename open files from in the app, universal color selector where you can add your own swatches, on and on and on.
The point being there is a reason macOS is seen as the industry leader in UI, even though it is FAR from perfect. This does not mean macOS is the best everywhere -- Gaming it is most certainly not. And development it is not. And lots of apps Windows has. And while I can point to Windows not having QuickLook until now, how long did it take for macOS to get snapping windows? And its window management took a long time to catch up... I still use a third party one that I prefer.
I think what you are seeing is you know Windows well, and lots of things on Linux work to be familiar to Windows users. You see different on macOS as bad,
and you also see some of the places I think most would agree it is behind. But
you do not see where it is ahead... and there are many places where it is. You
accept the warts of Windows because you are used to them.
With all this said, such discussions make me look at my "home" OS with a more critical eye so I can better see IT'S warts. I have talked about the issue with the menus before, but I do not think of it at all on a day-to-day basis. Just not an issue for me. Good to keep such things in mind for comparisons and, even more, better understanding.
I see what you're saying, actually, that Apple strives to have a
consistent interface between apps, but that's exactly where I get lost >>>> with it, somehow it's consistently obtuse. Microsoft just has more
energy in developing, more robust UIs.
I saw the example of the app staying open even with the last window closing. I
like that feature -- but I can see where it can be confusing. If an app can >>> only have one window it DOES close. But how do you know?
I think Apple just doesn't dot all the Is and cross all the Ts, so to
speak. It's brain damage.
I think you see the warts of macOS, and assume some things you do not understand are warts, while not seeing the ones on Windows because you are used to them.
But this is fun. It is a good way to learn the pros and cons. Let's pick some common tasks. Easy things. Things anyone can do. See how they are done on your
system and mine.
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
On 17/10/2025 23:01, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-17, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:LOL !
On 2025-10-17 06:28, Joel W. Crump wrote:
…
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in the way >>>> that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
Old Joel is going to be in a real bag of hurt next time he gets a new (or >>> new-to-him) car.
…because the controls & buttons layouts vary not only by Make, but also by
Model and Year.
-hh
There is no question about that.
My 24 Mustang is basically a computer on wheels.
Pretty much everything is controlled through the touch screen.
It took me a heck of a time getting used to it however once properly set up >> I rarely need to change anything on the fly and I like the ability to customize
things like the gauge display. Want it to look like a Cobra? Foxbody?Race track?
etc it's easy peasy and fun to play around with.
I was reluctant at first but now that I have gotten used to it why deal with >> an oil pressure gauge with a hose running into the engine compartment like >> my 72 Dodge Hemi had?
There is no way I personally want to return to that technology.
Things are just to smooth, informative and easy these days.
Until they break of course :)
That's what service contracts are for.
Still better than a hose leaking oil all voer the interior of the car though.
If you own one of these .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGbnCfwouSA
I am envious!
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can
continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback
if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively.
On 10/18/2025 1:50 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I see what you're saying, actually, that Apple strives to have a
consistent interface between apps, but that's exactly where I get lost >>>>> with it, somehow it's consistently obtuse. Microsoft just has more
energy in developing, more robust UIs.
I saw the example of the app staying open even with the last window closing. I
like that feature -- but I can see where it can be confusing. If an app can
only have one window it DOES close. But how do you know?
I think Apple just doesn't dot all the Is and cross all the Ts, so to
speak. It's brain damage.
I think you see the warts of macOS, and assume some things you do not
understand are warts, while not seeing the ones on Windows because you are >> used to them.
But this is fun. It is a good way to learn the pros and cons. Let's pick some
common tasks. Easy things. Things anyone can do. See how they are done on your
system and mine.
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might see it. >> Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
On 10/18/2025 1:46 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top >>>>> menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows >>>>> software has, and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard to
explain without a specific example, it's been too long since I've used a >>>>> Mac to give one, but that's what I recall.
With the menu: I get it. With older machines having one menu saved screen real
estate and the distance was small to get to it. And having it at the top makes
it "infinitely tall" and easier / more efficient to use.
But screens have grown. When you have multiple windows and the menu is always
at the top left, even for a window on the right, that is awkward. I do not use
menus often -- I use a lot of hot keys and toolbars -- but I *DO* use them,
and of course many use them more.
The "infinitely tall" benefit is still there... and I like the search in the
"Help" menu. MacOS also has more consistent terms and locations and hot keys
in menus -- so there are also advantages. But I absolutely can see where the
single menu can be not just confusing for a Windows user but seen as less >>>> intuitive -- the controls are not a part of the window where you are trying to
control something.
As far the rest of your comment -- not sure what you mean by "robust".
Meaning essentially that Windows developers put more thought into the
GUI, that Mac developers tend to under-utilize UI features such that the >>> apps have arbitrary ways of handling features, counterintuitive, not
well thought out.
I think that is a VERY hard case to make. Sure, there are some things which >> are not ideal -- and I would even argue macOS has slipped some in UI focus >> over the last decade. But I just opened Windows 11:
* There is STILL a split between "Settings" and "Control Panel". That is sorta
insane.
* There are things there that seem to require the right click menu (Browser >> Task Manager in Edge, for example).
* Inconsistencies in if there is a menu at all, and if so if there are even >> basics like "Edit" which holds copy and paste.
* Save dialogs, by default, have different locations on the sidebar -- even >> for Paint and Notepad which one would not expect to save in uncommon
locations.
* Windows is only now getting QuickLook or something like it.
* Look at the list I provided earlier of things macOS does have: proxy icons,
ability to rename open files from in the app, universal color selector where >> you can add your own swatches, on and on and on.
The point being there is a reason macOS is seen as the industry leader in UI,
even though it is FAR from perfect. This does not mean macOS is the best
everywhere -- Gaming it is most certainly not. And development it is not. And
lots of apps Windows has. And while I can point to Windows not having
QuickLook until now, how long did it take for macOS to get snapping windows? >> And its window management took a long time to catch up... I still use a third
party one that I prefer.
I think what you are seeing is you know Windows well, and lots of things on >> Linux work to be familiar to Windows users. You see different on macOS as bad,
and you also see some of the places I think most would agree it is behind. But
you do not see where it is ahead... and there are many places where it is. You
accept the warts of Windows because you are used to them.
With all this said, such discussions make me look at my "home" OS with a more
critical eye so I can better see IT'S warts. I have talked about the issue >> with the menus before, but I do not think of it at all on a day-to-day basis.
Just not an issue for me. Good to keep such things in mind for comparisons >> and, even more, better understanding.
It's fair to point out that there are inconsistencies in Windows' UI.
It's something that has evolved in a proprietary way, leading to the
separate Settings and Control Panel, and then you also have the
registry, and there's the Microsoft Store but also independent
"installers" that are executable, and so on.
I was focusing on working
within apps, in what I said, to compare Windows and macOS, but the
broader comparison does get complex, indeed.
Do you remember specifics of any of these challenges?
I tend to prefer macOS, but there are quirks that bother me. Hello Pages >> ... can you please get your tabs / toolbars to be consistent on ALL the
tabs? Same with Numbers and Keynote.
Two things baffled me at first: deletion of an object needed the
Command key, as did clicking on URLs.
I assume you mean deleting files... yes... made "harder" to stop accidental deletions.
Not sure what you mean by clicking on URLs. To open in a new tab?
Both actions are utterly
basic but lacking guidance they were out of reach to this Mac
novice. Fortunately there was plenty of help to be found in
comp.sys.mac.* which in those far-off days still had plenty of
helpful people who were tolerant of know-nothing newbies.
Macs do work to protect you from yourself. That has pros and cons.
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by Apple). If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
On 10/17/2025 8:24 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question? If
they weren't brain-damaged from LSD, as Jobs admitted being a user of.
I know about LSD, having used it myself, but I also used other stuff
like MDMA, to not just be a dumb burnout nerd, like Jobs.
This does you no credit, Joel.
The LSD nerd will never understand what it's like to overcome small
mind, with amphetamines and dissociative anesthetics. It's marvelous.
The loss of intellectual power is worth it to just have free reign over oneself, energy, I could still code software for example, in fact it'd
be easier than ever, because I would just get going with it, instead of having set patterns for how to go about it, I would be more innovative, unlike Apple's lame-brain programmers.
--
Joel W. Crump
On 17/10/2025 23:01, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-17, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:LOL !
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in the way >>>>> that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
Old Joel is going to be in a real bag of hurt next time he gets a new (or >>>> new-to-him) car.
…because the controls & buttons layouts vary not only by Make, but also by
Model and Year.
There is no question about that.
My 24 Mustang is basically a computer on wheels.
Pretty much everything is controlled through the touch screen.
Plus there’s vast layout variations in button layouts even without them being usurped by touchscreens. Joel will be curled up in a little ball of cope failure.
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by Apple).
If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match
something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
Add to that, drag and drop between apps works better. I just tried dragging an
image from Edge to Paint. Nope. Does not work. On macOS, not only can I do this, I can start the drag and then Command+Tab to the other app and just drop
it. I tend to have a lot of apps open (24 right now) and I can even just start
the drag, Command+Tab, and then drag to the app I want to drag it to. What does NOT work is dragging to a tab in the app -- it *SHOULD*. So not saying Apple is perfect here either... but they are MUCH better. You can drag to the Dock icon and get a list of recently opened files -- but even that is quirky.
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might see it. >>> Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
Cmd-Tab. Next?
On 10/18/2025 8:16 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might
see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is
what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
Cmd-Tab. Next?
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 8:24 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question? If >>>> they weren't brain-damaged from LSD, as Jobs admitted being a user of. >>>> I know about LSD, having used it myself, but I also used other stuff
like MDMA, to not just be a dumb burnout nerd, like Jobs.
This does you no credit, Joel.
The LSD nerd will never understand what it's like to overcome small
mind, with amphetamines and dissociative anesthetics. It's marvelous.
The loss of intellectual power is worth it to just have free reign over
oneself, energy, I could still code software for example, in fact it'd
be easier than ever, because I would just get going with it, instead of
having set patterns for how to go about it, I would be more innovative,
unlike Apple's lame-brain programmers.
OK, that's enough. I call troll.
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might
see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is
what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
Cmd-Tab. Next?
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
So what? The keyboard's right next to your trackpad.
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:23:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead
<pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every
day. There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS
unless you are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other
way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from
LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example,
though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
David B. <BD@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
On 17/10/2025 23:01, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-17, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:LOL !
On 2025-10-17 06:28, Joel W. Crump wrote:
…
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in the way >>>>> that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
Old Joel is going to be in a real bag of hurt next time he gets a new (or >>>> new-to-him) car.
…because the controls & buttons layouts vary not only by Make, but also by
Model and Year.
-hh
There is no question about that.
My 24 Mustang is basically a computer on wheels.
Pretty much everything is controlled through the touch screen.
Plus there’s vast layout variations in button layouts even without them being usurped by touchscreens. Joel will be curled up in a little ball of cope failure.
It took me a heck of a time getting used to it however once properly set up >>> I rarely need to change anything on the fly and I like the ability to customize
things like the gauge display. Want it to look like a Cobra? Foxbody?Race track?
etc it's easy peasy and fun to play around with.
There’s similarly been pretty interesting variations n just where the ignition switch (and now button) have been located. I’ve already had right side dash, left side dash, right side steering column, & center console.
I was reluctant at first but now that I have gotten used to it why deal with
an oil pressure gauge with a hose running into the engine compartment like >>> my 72 Dodge Hemi had?
There is no way I personally want to return to that technology.
Things are just to smooth, informative and easy these days.
Until they break of course :)
That's what service contracts are for.
Still better than a hose leaking oil all voer the interior of the car though.
Troubleshooting of vacuum hose leaks critical to an analog computer control system was no picnic either.
If you own one of these .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGbnCfwouSA
I am envious!
Nah. They just took the cheapest V8 model & added an aftermarket turbo kit to it.
-hh
Nope, it's hard facts. LSD leads to lower-level intellectual
development and death from cancer. MDMA leads to eternal life.
Take your pick.
Nope, it's hard facts. LSD leads to lower-level intellectual
development and death from cancer. MDMA leads to eternal life.
Take your pick.
You choose what you like; I choose to no longer take you seriously.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
Nope, it's hard facts. LSD leads to lower-level intellectual
development and death from cancer. MDMA leads to eternal life.
Take your pick.
You choose what you like; I choose to no longer take you seriously.
On 10/18/2025 9:08 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might >>>>>> see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is
what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
Cmd-Tab. Next?
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
So what? The keyboard's right next to your trackpad.
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they make it harder than it should be intuitively.
On Oct 18, 2025 at 6:16:11 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <vqMIQ.596886$k_17.493944@fx10.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 9:08 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might >>>>>>> see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is >>>>>> what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
So what? The keyboard's right next to your trackpad.
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they make it
harder than it should be intuitively.
It does take some getting used to -- but it also saves screen real estate which is still a big things on phones.
On 2025-10-18, vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:23:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead
<pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every
day. There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS
unless you are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other >>>>>>>>> way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using >>>>>>>> it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from
LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example,
though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
The menu bar at the top is just a different way of interacting with the application.
I agree it seems strange at first, but once you get used to it, at least to me, it's
easy enough to use.
As for the app still running when closed, I am certainly no Apple guru but the
way it was explained to me is that IOS manages the apps, memory, resources and
so forth so it's more of a leave it alone is actually overall more efficient. Initially the concept did confuse me, but on my iPhone I just let it do it's thing.
Per-User settings IMHO is contrary to say Linux where the user can adjust everything
to their liking. And for Linux that means EVERYTHING.
Apple's model is more of a "do it our way or else".
Not completely of course but much more than Linux or Windows.
Both have their pluses and minuses.
Tech support for one.
It's easier for Apple to support a more consistent interface than supporting say
Linux where things for each user can be highly customized.
For me, I prefer Linux for my PC's and have a love hate relationship with my iPhone and
Android as well. I have 2 phones. I find that various settings on the Android are in more
logical places where the iPhone has me using the Search Feature alot.
That's just me though.
On 10/18/2025 3:39 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap >> into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you
used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an
extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term >> in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the
browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH >> faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by
Apple).
That is pretty cool.
If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match
something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in
Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I >> can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web >> Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that
common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
Add to that, drag and drop between apps works better. I just tried dragging an
image from Edge to Paint. Nope. Does not work. On macOS, not only can I do >> this, I can start the drag and then Command+Tab to the other app and just drop
it. I tend to have a lot of apps open (24 right now) and I can even just start
the drag, Command+Tab, and then drag to the app I want to drag it to. What >> does NOT work is dragging to a tab in the app -- it *SHOULD*. So not saying >> Apple is perfect here either... but they are MUCH better. You can drag to the
Dock icon and get a list of recently opened files -- but even that is quirky.
You give some interesting examples, clearly a resourceful user like you
has some advantages with macOS's UI, and I would acknowledge I'd do well
to give Macs another chance, if I had the means to. Probably won't
happen, but I should be more open-minded about others using them.
On 10/18/2025 10:20 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 6:16:11 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<vqMIQ.596886$k_17.493944@fx10.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 9:08 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might >>>>>>>> see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif >>>>>>> initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is >>>>>>> what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
So what? The keyboard's right next to your trackpad.
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they make it >>> harder than it should be intuitively.
It does take some getting used to -- but it also saves screen real estate
which is still a big things on phones.
Screen space is one thing, functionality should be the prime factor
though. It's a deal-breaker, for me, with the iPhone, I have to have Samsung's UI.
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
[...]
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
If it's too much trouble to go to the menu, use Cmd-Q;
nothing could be easier.
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you remember specifics of any of these challenges?
I tend to prefer macOS, but there are quirks that bother me. Hello Pages >>>> ... can you please get your tabs / toolbars to be consistent on ALL the >>>> tabs? Same with Numbers and Keynote.
Two things baffled me at first: deletion of an object needed the
Command key, as did clicking on URLs.
I assume you mean deleting files... yes... made "harder" to stop accidental >> deletions.
Not sure what you mean by clicking on URLs. To open in a new tab?
It was ~20 years ago and the details are very hazy now; not needing to remember it (thanks, macOS) means that the memory has mostly evaporated.
Both actions are utterly
basic but lacking guidance they were out of reach to this Mac
novice. Fortunately there was plenty of help to be found in
comp.sys.mac.* which in those far-off days still had plenty of
helpful people who were tolerant of know-nothing newbies.
Macs do work to protect you from yourself. That has pros and cons.
I can't think of many cons; those safeguards are all surmountable but
they do make you pause to consider the wisdom of a risky action.
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by Apple). If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
Add to that, drag and drop between apps works better. I just tried dragging an
image from Edge to Paint. Nope. Does not work. On macOS, not only can I do this, I can start the drag and then Command+Tab to the other app and just drop
it. I tend to have a lot of apps open (24 right now) and I can even just start
the drag, Command+Tab, and then drag to the app I want to drag it to. What does NOT work is dragging to a tab in the app -- it *SHOULD*. So not saying Apple is perfect here either... but they are MUCH better. You can drag to the Dock icon and get a list of recently opened files -- but even that is quirky.
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap >> into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you
used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an
extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term >> in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the
browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH >> faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by
Apple). If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match
something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in
Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I >> can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web >> Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that
common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
Nice; this is the best idea I've gained from this thread, thank you.
On Sat, 10/18/2025 3:39 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap >> into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you
used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an
extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term >> in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the
browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH >> faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by
Apple). If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match
something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in
Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I >> can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web >> Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that
common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
Add to that, drag and drop between apps works better. I just tried dragging an
image from Edge to Paint. Nope. Does not work. On macOS, not only can I do >> this, I can start the drag and then Command+Tab to the other app and just drop
it. I tend to have a lot of apps open (24 right now) and I can even just start
the drag, Command+Tab, and then drag to the app I want to drag it to. What >> does NOT work is dragging to a tab in the app -- it *SHOULD*. So not saying >> Apple is perfect here either... but they are MUCH better. You can drag to the
Dock icon and get a list of recently opened files -- but even that is quirky.
This will blow past all that stuff.
https://www.engadget.com/computing/microsofts-next-windows-11-ai-gamble-just-say-hey-copilot-130000875.html
You will be able to say "Hey CoPilot, take the third image on the right from the
MSEdge page I am viewing and open it in Paint".
Do all the users want to opt into that ? Not likely :-)
But at least it's a better use of the computer
than the Opt-in Recall project.
*******
Not all web pages are available as a series of modular elements.
Some lock the image content, so it cannot be selected, cannot save as, and so on.
You should not be able to object oriented select absolutely everything you see
on web pages.
On Windows, you can use the SnippingTool, rectangular select, capture an image,
go to the icon bar and select... "Edit in Paint" icon.
That means you can go anywhere on
the current Windows desktop surface, select any rectangular region you want in
Snippingtool,
hit the "Edit in Paint" and off you go.
Start : Run : snippingtool.exe then pin it to the Task Bar
The SnippingTool in Windows 11 now has around 18 items on the top bar. Another
one is Text Actions, which has OCR in it for taking protected text you cannot copy on the computer, and converting it.
The converted text is not saved
in such a way that the layout of the text is preserved. Like a lot of computer tools, it's still a work in progress.
But with the voice command
capability, you'll be able to tell the AI to "not lose the layout details".
Absolutely nothing on Windows is perfect. Some subsystems, they've been working
for years on the content, and progress is pretty slow. For example, at one point, I tried to get TCP/IP networking to work across Bluetooth. I got
two packets through it, then it stopped. Well, about a year ago, I retested, and finally it is working. It's a useless capability, as it runs at 75KB/sec or so (like floppy speed) -- I was only tracking this to see how slow
the progress would be on fleshing out a Bluetooth stack. And they did seem
to continue to work on that feature.
Paul--
On Sat, 10/18/2025 3:39 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you
used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term
in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH
faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by Apple). If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in
Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
Add to that, drag and drop between apps works better. I just tried dragging an
image from Edge to Paint. Nope. Does not work. On macOS, not only can I do this, I can start the drag and then Command+Tab to the other app and just drop
it. I tend to have a lot of apps open (24 right now) and I can even just start
the drag, Command+Tab, and then drag to the app I want to drag it to. What does NOT work is dragging to a tab in the app -- it *SHOULD*. So not saying Apple is perfect here either... but they are MUCH better. You can drag to the
Dock icon and get a list of recently opened files -- but even that is quirky.
This will blow past all that stuff.
https://www.engadget.com/computing/microsofts-next-windows-11-ai-gamble-just-say-hey-copilot-130000875.html
You will be able to say "Hey CoPilot, take the third image on the right from the
MSEdge page I am viewing and open it in Paint".
Do all the users want to opt into that ? Not likely :-)
But at least it's a better use of the computer
than the Opt-in Recall project.
*******
Not all web pages are available as a series of modular elements.
Some lock the image content, so it cannot be selected, cannot save as, and so on.
You should not be able to object oriented select absolutely everything you see
on web pages.
On Windows, you can use the SnippingTool, rectangular select, capture an image,
go to the icon bar and select... "Edit in Paint" icon. That means you can go anywhere on
the current Windows desktop surface, select any rectangular region you want in Snippingtool,
hit the "Edit in Paint" and off you go.
Start : Run : snippingtool.exe then pin it to the Task Bar
The SnippingTool in Windows 11 now has around 18 items on the top bar. Another
one is Text Actions, which has OCR in it for taking protected text you cannot copy on the computer, and converting it. The converted text is not saved
in such a way that the layout of the text is preserved. Like a lot of computer tools, it's still a work in progress. But with the voice command capability, you'll be able to tell the AI to "not lose the layout details".
Absolutely nothing on Windows is perfect. Some subsystems, they've been working
for years on the content, and progress is pretty slow. For example, at one point, I tried to get TCP/IP networking to work across Bluetooth. I got
two packets through it, then it stopped. Well, about a year ago, I retested, and finally it is working. It's a useless capability, as it runs at 75KB/sec or so (like floppy speed) -- I was only tracking this to see how slow
the progress would be on fleshing out a Bluetooth stack. And they did seem
to continue to work on that feature.
Paul
On Oct 18, 2025 at 5:02:29 AM MST, "Sn!pe" wrote <1rkehez.11ukda01ynuwnaN%snipeco.2@gmail.com>:
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap >>> into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you
used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an
extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term
in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the
browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH
faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by
Apple). If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match >>> something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in
Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I >>> can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web >>> Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that >>> common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
Nice; this is the best idea I've gained from this thread, thank you.
Thanks. I shared this example in another post, but in case you missed it:
-----
Gremlin (occasional poster to COLA) made what he called AZ Code. It is a different way to encode text. You can calculate it algorithmically or you can just use a table.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14_W7lBUriKUprzudChOGaEDpJ6k9K45K/view
Note the final column in that table. He and others have used this as a simple cipher in ACW. I wanted a way to encode / decode it quickly. So I made it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14_W7lBUriKUprzudChOGaEDpJ6k9K45K/view
If you pause on my menu you can see "Urban Dictionary" and others I use. Another is "Open HXXP(S)". When people obfuscate links with changing https to hxxps (for malware risks or whatever) I can still open them easily if I opt to
-- though my script offers a warning before I do.
I am NOT a programmer. I am a self described "shitty scripter"... and I made these. With the help of ChatGPT now I can make more complex things. :)
-----
This is NOT me saying macOS is what everyone should use. Use what you like! I am a bit of a "Usability Geek" -- I would love for others to chime in and say "cool... but here are things I can do on Linux / Windows that make them have usability benefits". And macOS certainly has its quirks and warts. The new "Settings" app is cumbersome at best. It is made to look sorta like what the have on the iPhone and seems to confuse everyone -- that goodness it has a decent search feature! Pages and the rest of "iWork" has a bizarre UI bug where the toolbar *USUALLY* stretches across the window but in some cases the sidebar reaches all the way to the top forcing it to resize -- along with the tabs. For me, who uses tabs a lot, this is a frustration.
Add to that: I know Windows and Linux have a lot of window management tools that did not come to macOS for some time. Even snapping. Why did it take macOS
so long? LOL! There are also a lot of resizing / splitting options. I just need to play. I do use a third party app on macOS to gain more functionality, but I am sure there is plenty I am missing by not being as familiar with other
systems.
Apps: I have yet to find a Usenet client on macOS I consider to be anything better than "serviceable". Windows and Linux, I am sure, have better options. This is true of many types of apps.
And of course I am sure there is a lot I do not even think of. If you are not a macOS user you would not think of the stuff I show above... which is fine. But what am *I* not thinking of because I am grossly behind on Linux and Windows, and even when I did use them (especially Linux) I was not a heavy user in terms of sitting in front of a box and using it as my main system.
My gift of gab has made this longer than intended... could go on, but you get the idea. LOL!--
On Oct 18, 2025 at 5:56:19 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <T7MIQ.180816$RrE7.61499@fx45.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 3:39 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap >>> into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you
used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an
extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term
in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the
browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH
faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by
Apple).
That is pretty cool.
Here is an example I recently was showing. Gremlin (occasional poster to COLA)
made what he called AZ Code. It is a different way to encode text. You can calculate it algorithmically or you can just use a table.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14_W7lBUriKUprzudChOGaEDpJ6k9K45K/view
Note the final column in that table. He and others have used this as a simple cipher in ACW. I wanted a way to encode / decode it quickly. So I made it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14_W7lBUriKUprzudChOGaEDpJ6k9K45K/view
If you pause on my menu you can see "Urban Dictionary" and others I use. Another is "Open HXXP(S)". When people obfuscate links with changing https to hxxps (for malware risks or whatever) I can still open them easily if I opt to--
-- though my script offers a warning before I do.
I am NOT a programmer. I am a self described "shitty scripter"... and I made these. With the help of ChatGPT now I can make more complex things. :)
If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match
something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in
Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I >>> can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web >>> Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that >>> common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
Add to that, drag and drop between apps works better. I just tried dragging an
image from Edge to Paint. Nope. Does not work. On macOS, not only can I do >>> this, I can start the drag and then Command+Tab to the other app and just drop
it. I tend to have a lot of apps open (24 right now) and I can even just start
the drag, Command+Tab, and then drag to the app I want to drag it to. What >>> does NOT work is dragging to a tab in the app -- it *SHOULD*. So not saying >>> Apple is perfect here either... but they are MUCH better. You can drag to the
Dock icon and get a list of recently opened files -- but even that is quirky.
You give some interesting examples, clearly a resourceful user like you
has some advantages with macOS's UI, and I would acknowledge I'd do well
to give Macs another chance, if I had the means to. Probably won't
happen, but I should be more open-minded about others using them.
Thanks. I do want to be clear I am not saying this means macOS is "the best" for everyone or pushing it on anyone. It also DOES have its quirks, its limitations, and its own style some very legitimacy might not like. There is NOTHING wrong with preferring Windows or Linux.
What I would like is for people who primarily use those systems to educate *ME*. Note that they, in their own usage of Linux, do X, Y, and Z which would be cumbersome or impossible on the competition. Things more than just change the look of the UI (though if they want to show off that, cool), but things that streamline their workflow and make them more efficient. Same with Windows. I know fewer of the things there -- but I also use those systems far less.
When I get into my "usability rants" some think I am pushing Apple as the be-all and end-all. Nope! I *WANT* to learn the benefits of the others and assume they are there. But if you are not a "UI Geek" like me you likely do not even think of them -- you use *USE* them. Only time you miss them is when you go to a different system and these "obvious" things are missing.
You have mentioned some: simple things like X quitting (exiting) an app. The top menu is another. Yes, you can get third party apps to put it on windows (just as you can get a top window in Linux or Windows), but it is not ideal and not native.
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 10:53:39 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 10/18/2025 3:39 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is I can tap >> > into tools from other apps, or even make my own extensions (Services). If you
used some slang I did not know, I can right click on it and select an
extension I made -- Urban Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term
in my browser. This is no different than copying the word, opening the
browser, going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is MUCH
faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones not made by
Apple). If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match >> > something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is available in
Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I have a set of fonts I often
use, I can get to that set in almost any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I
can do that from any app I can print from -- which is also true for Windows --
but I can have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web >> > Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything like that >> > common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is not just academic.
Add to that, drag and drop between apps works better. I just tried dragging an
image from Edge to Paint. Nope. Does not work. On macOS, not only can I do >> > this, I can start the drag and then Command+Tab to the other app and just drop
it. I tend to have a lot of apps open (24 right now) and I can even just start
the drag, Command+Tab, and then drag to the app I want to drag it to. What >> > does NOT work is dragging to a tab in the app -- it *SHOULD*. So not saying
Apple is perfect here either... but they are MUCH better. You can drag to the
Dock icon and get a list of recently opened files -- but even that is quirky.
This will blow past all that stuff.
https://www.engadget.com/computing/microsofts-next-windows-11-ai-gamble-just-say-hey-copilot-130000875.html
You will be able to say "Hey CoPilot, take the third image on the right from the
MSEdge page I am viewing and open it in Paint".
Do all the users want to opt into that ? Not likely :-)
But at least it's a better use of the computer
than the Opt-in Recall project.
*******
Not all web pages are available as a series of modular elements.
Some lock the image content, so it cannot be selected, cannot save as, and so on.
You should not be able to object oriented select absolutely everything you see
on web pages.
On Windows, you can use the SnippingTool, rectangular select, capture an image,
go to the icon bar and select... "Edit in Paint" icon. That means you can go anywhere on
the current Windows desktop surface, select any rectangular region you want in Snippingtool,
hit the "Edit in Paint" and off you go.
Start : Run : snippingtool.exe then pin it to the Task Bar
The SnippingTool in Windows 11 now has around 18 items on the top bar. Another
one is Text Actions, which has OCR in it for taking protected text you cannot
copy on the computer, and converting it. The converted text is not saved
in such a way that the layout of the text is preserved. Like a lot of
computer tools, it's still a work in progress. But with the voice command
capability, you'll be able to tell the AI to "not lose the layout details". >>
Absolutely nothing on Windows is perfect. Some subsystems, they've been working
for years on the content, and progress is pretty slow. For example, at one >> point, I tried to get TCP/IP networking to work across Bluetooth. I got
two packets through it, then it stopped. Well, about a year ago, I retested, >> and finally it is working. It's a useless capability, as it runs at 75KB/sec >> or so (like floppy speed) -- I was only tracking this to see how slow
the progress would be on fleshing out a Bluetooth stack. And they did seem >> to continue to work on that feature.
Paul
Thank you for your post.
It should be pointed out that Snit is a well-known concern troll. He's already
driving in tent stakes with his circus, by posting (and reposting, as if anybody
would miss it) his feud crap about Gremlin. And the nonsense about close/exit/quit is old material that he is regurgitating from years ago.
A word to the wise, eh?
ObLinux, ObWindows, ObMac:
We have a Mac Studio, my workstation is a turnkey Linux workstation, and it has a libvirt virtual host that runs Windows 11 Pro for Workstations.
On the latter, a note: I needed to remove Bitlocker from the Windows
drives to be able to get at them from Linux, which I did using instructions that Paul posted for another group denizen. (Thank you, Paul.)
I was going to boot it to update it, but I hear there are...issues...with localhost.
Would rather not have a broken network stack. (Truly, how does such a thing even get out the door? MSFT should have a test suite that runs through everything,
as well as fuzz testing.)
On Oct 16, 2025 at 5:15:02 PM MST, "Ant" wrote <10cs1q6$oj7d$4@dont-email.me>:
In alt.comp.os.windows-11 Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Oct 14, 2025 at 10:30:15?PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<HjGHQ.199859$RB68.119732@fx39.iad>:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and
foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it. There are too many goodies >>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else. The fanboy in me has
reemerged. I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers can't >>>> keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution is best >>> for everyone. Best luck with it.
Ditto. I use all.
I find it sad how people get so "religious" over OSs, sports, and so many other things. I do sorta get that way about politics, but only the extremes.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 3:18:23 PM MST, "nobody" wrote <XnsB37BBA39B4C9Enobody2uhotmailorg@62.164.182.27>:
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote in
news:68f2a905$1$5010$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 9:20:06 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlf8lmF540uU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 17/10/2025 17:00, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:47:31 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<7GsIQ.518186$7Ika.237806@fx17.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 10:37 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/17/2025 9:35 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/16/2025 12:37 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 15:07, Joel W. Crump wrote:
Apple in terms of the Mac
product line is a cult because no one would use it unless
they really don't like Windows and/or Linux. It's quirkware. >>>>>>>>>> It's for people with brains that are not up to speed. And >>>>>>>>>> that's why it costs so much, you're getting speshul
treatment.
Define what makes it "quirkware" such that only macOS
qualifies...
It's counterintuitive, not for normal people's minds. Weird
people love it, though, and swear by it. And to be fair, there >>>>>>>> are certain very specific professional applications that are
well-made for it, high-end video editing and so forth. My
biggest problem with it is the prices, though, because I
recognize that weird people genuinely like the UI, but they're >>>>>>>> paying a serious premium to get it.
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every day.
There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS unless you >>>>>>> are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other way is just
as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using
it.
Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence
to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I do admit I come to computers in an uncommon route -- in '87 I
started working in a computer lab. There were PCs (DOS), Macs, and
UNIX terminals. I literally did not know where the on switch was
to any of them. I did know the older Apple II systems. In any
case, my job was to help others with using software -- so no
matter the system I was tasked with figuring it out. I did a good
job and by the end of my college career I was running a cluster of
education labs and teaching high school students on weekends
(though Upward Bound).
A great way to learn! 🙂
True.
My focus even from the start was diving into new (to me) OSs and
software and figuring out what others were finding challenging.
And that was when things were changing fairly quickly, at least in
the PC world (Windows came into prominence then). Even a bit later
when Windows 95 came out, I was working with a large school
district and United Way as a sysop but also in charge of training.
Then moved to Intuit where I did tech support and, again, training
(mostly on OSs and not their software).
All of this to say: I get my experience and ways of looking at
tech are, like all of us, shaded by my experience, but my
experience has largely been about figuring things out and
teaching. Or when doing tech work for small schools / businesses
finding cheap ways to do what most would need more money to do.
All good experience, but NOT in the same league as most other folk
on the ACW group! ;-)
Many are "Professionals"!
I am a professional teacher. And tech.
A professional teacher Michael?
Do you have a degree in teaching / education?
Are you licensed?
Are you acredited in any way?
Have you managed to fulfill the requirements for becoming a teacher
in Arizona?
<https://www.alleducationschools.com/teacher-certification/arizona/>
As for being a tech, you cannot be serious snit.
what kind of tech doesn't know the difference between a soldering
iron and an engraver? Especially when there are labels on each?
You ran a now defunct computer repair business known as
The Prescott Computer Guy yet just recently you were unable to
repair your own computer and had no clue how to boot to safe mode.
It's no wonder a local to you brick and mortar business with a
similar name was offering a discount to clients who had the
misfortune of contracting you to repair their computers which you
ended up destroying. So yea, you are some fucking tech alright snit.
Stop telling porkies and head off to make a fresh batch of jenkem
because you could use it.
IOW go fuck yourself snit and take your tolling elsewhere.
You angry, bro?
On Oct 17, 2025 at 2:36:54 PM MST, "nobody" wrote <XnsB37BB330C3CA1nobody2uhotmailorg@62.164.182.26>:using
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote in
news:68f2b18d$0$4162$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 1:06:55 PM MST, "Sn!pe" wrote
<1rkd92n.15d7iup1rs3xw2N%snipeco.2@gmail.com>:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 12:29, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:22 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:30, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by
theit. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no >>>>>>>>>> coherence to the UI. I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a >>>>>>>>>> GUI.
I do not find that to be the case. Have any examples?
I think it results from Macs not really being oriented toward
thatBullshit.mainstream, they're quirky machines for quirky people, not that >>>>>>>> there's anything wrong with that, if one fits in with it.
And again, asked for specific examples, you reply with
generalities.
It's been too long since I was in front of a Mac, to remember an
example. It's just a trend I see in the platform.
What really happened is you encountered something that didn't work
the way you were used to, and you immediately threw your hands up.
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
To be fair, when I first switched from Mandrake Linux to MacOS X
I found it very strange; it took me at least a day before I felt at
home with the Mac way of doing things. The trick is to stop trying
to bend the computer to your will and accept using it in the way
it's been designed.
Do you remember specifics of any of these challenges?
Snit circus alert !!!!!!!!!
Ignore the snit troll !
Or suffer the consequences.
You are posting a lot of trolling and blaming me.
--<https://tinyurl.com/WhatIsSnit>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitliesmethods>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snit-Reviews>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitwhopperlie>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snit-teddybear>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitonduck>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitongoogle>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse1>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse2>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse3>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse4>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse5>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse6>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse7>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse8>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse9>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse10>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse11>
On Oct 17, 2025 at 2:35:12 PM MST, "nobody" wrote <XnsB37BB2E708713nobody2uhotmailorg@62.164.182.26>:you
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote in
news:68f2aea8$1$5009$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 12:38:05 PM MST, "Alan" wrote
<10cu5uu$1b918$5@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-10-17 09:57, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:28 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 10:44:50 -0400
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 10:34 AM, Tom Elam wrote:
On 10/15/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-15 10:36, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/15/2025 12:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple is a cult.
No. Apple is a COMPANY that sells PRODUCTS.
Expensive products.
And yet people buy them...
...and buy them again, and again.
It's not just the products. It's the whole package. Opening the >>>>>>>> Apple stores was a stroke of genius. So is Applecare + coverage >>>>>>>> beyond 2 years.
You have to be kidding me, they cost so much as the base price,
and you wanna pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it
baffles me. They can't even guarantee an overpriced product will >>>>>>> last, unless you pay extra for that. Just retarded.
It's a whole different business model; just leave the Apple guys
alone. They are "happy" or "suckers" - it depends on what where
whensit.
You have a point, they're never going to listen to me, because they
are so averse to Windows and/or Linux.
I'm not "averse" to either of them, dipshit.
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many
opportunities to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it
available.necessary.
That to me is the way to be -- use whatever works best / is
Good to have at least basic familiarity with all three. And, really,
these days if you are relatively tech focused they are similar enough
to get basic work done on whatever is there.
Barf!
Cut the good cop:bad cop schtick snit.
All you are interested in is setting up another circus tent so you can
troll.
Youa ren't fooling anyone but yourself.
Can you keep your trolling to alt.computer.workshop?
--<https://tinyurl.com/WhatIsSnit>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitliesmethods>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snit-Reviews>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitwhopperlie>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snit-teddybear>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitonduck>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitongoogle>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse1>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse2>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse3>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse4>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse5>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse6>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse7>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse8>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse9>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse10>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse11>
On Oct 18, 2025 at 9:02:47 AM MST, "vallor" wrote <10d0dn7$1tm7u$2@dont-email.me>:_W7lBUriKUprzudChOGaEDpJ6k9K45K/view
At 18 Oct 2025 15:50:50 GMT, Brock McNuggets
<brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 7:35:14 AM MST, "Brock McNuggets" wrote
<68f3a5a2$1$21959$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 5:56:19 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<T7MIQ.180816$RrE7.61499@fx45.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 3:39 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One of the things I like about working within an app in macOS is
I can tap into tools from other apps, or even make my own
extensions (Services). If you used some slang I did not know, I
can right click on it and select an extension I made -- Urban
Dictionary -- and it will do a search for the term in my browser.
This is no different than copying the word, opening the browser,
going to Urban Dictionary, pasting, and searching... but it is
MUCH faster. And I can do it from pretty much ANY app (even ones
not made by Apple).
That is pretty cool.
Here is an example I recently was showing. Gremlin (occasional
poster to COLA) made what he called AZ Code. It is a different way
to encode text. You can calculate it algorithmically or you can
just use a table.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14
_W7lBUriKUprzudChOGaEDpJ6k9K45K/view
Note the final column in that table. He and others have used this
as a simple cipher in ACW. I wanted a way to encode / decode it
quickly. So I made it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14
xgiYJEUMfn4fjuPqp0zUe7ltw/view
Whoops:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dsmEE2-
minded
If you pause on my menu you can see "Urban Dictionary" and others I
use. Another is "Open HXXP(S)". When people obfuscate links with
changing https to hxxps (for malware risks or whatever) I can still
open them easily if I opt to -- though my script offers a warning
before I do.
I am NOT a programmer. I am a self described "shitty scripter"...
and I made these. With the help of ChatGPT now I can make more
complex things. :)
If I am working on a project in Pages and I want a color to match
something I selected in Photoshop (and made a swatch for), it is
available in Pages. No need to leave the app. Much faster. If I
have a set of fonts I often use, I can get to that set in almost
any app. If I want to "Print to PDF" I can do that from any app I
can print from -- which is also true for Windows -- but I can
have preset destinations for that PDF. I use this often for "Web
Receipts"... and for just sending to Preview (is there anything
like that common for Windows?). I use that often... so this is
not just academic.
Add to that, drag and drop between apps works better. I just
tried dragging an image from Edge to Paint. Nope. Does not work.
On macOS, not only can I do this, I can start the drag and then
Command+Tab to the other app and just drop it. I tend to have a
lot of apps open (24 right now) and I can even just start the
drag, Command+Tab, and then drag to the app I want to drag it to.
What does NOT work is dragging to a tab in the app -- it
*SHOULD*. So not saying Apple is perfect here either... but they
are MUCH better. You can drag to the Dock icon and get a list of
recently opened files -- but even that is quirky.
You give some interesting examples, clearly a resourceful user
like you has some advantages with macOS's UI, and I would
acknowledge I'd do well to give Macs another chance, if I had the
means to. Probably won't happen, but I should be more open-
about others using them.
Thanks. I do want to be clear I am not saying this means macOS is
"the best" for everyone or pushing it on anyone. It also DOES have
its quirks, its limitations, and its own style some very legitimacy
might not like. There is NOTHING wrong with preferring Windows or
Linux.
What I would like is for people who primarily use those systems to
educate *ME*. Note that they, in their own usage of Linux, do X, Y,
and Z which would be cumbersome or impossible on the competition.
Things more than just change the look of the UI (though if they
want to show off that, cool), but things that streamline their
workflow and make them more efficient. Same with Windows. I know
fewer of the things there -- but I also use those systems far less.
When I get into my "usability rants" some think I am pushing Apple
as the be-all and end-all. Nope! I *WANT* to learn the benefits of
the others and assume they are there. But if you are not a "UI
Geek" like me you likely do not even think of them -- you use *USE*
them. Only time you miss them is when you go to a different system
and these "obvious" things are missing.
You have mentioned some: simple things like X quitting (exiting) an
app. The top menu is another. Yes, you can get third party apps to
put it on windows (just as you can get a top window in Linux or
Windows), but it is not ideal and not native.
You had to post your "woops" twice, eh?
More and more people are on to you, Troll.
Keep your feud out of COLA.
Thanks or keeping your trolling in ACW.
--<https://tinyurl.com/WhatIsSnit>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitliesmethods>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snit-Reviews>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitwhopperlie>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snit-teddybear>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitonduck>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitongoogle>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse1>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse2>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse3>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse4>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse5>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse6>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse7>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse8>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse9>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse10>
<https://tinyurl.com/Snitdrugabuse11>
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote at 00:49 this Friday (GMT):
On Oct 16, 2025 at 5:15:02 PM MST, "Ant" wrote <10cs1q6$oj7d$4@dont-email.me>:
In alt.comp.os.windows-11 Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 14, 2025 at 10:30:15?PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<HjGHQ.199859$RB68.119732@fx39.iad>:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and
foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it. There are too many goodies >>>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else. The fanboy in me has
reemerged. I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers can't >>>>> keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution is best
for everyone. Best luck with it.
Ditto. I use all.
I find it sad how people get so "religious" over OSs, sports, and so many
other things. I do sorta get that way about politics, but only the extremes.
IMO it was kinda intentional. I mean, Apple pretty explicitly set up
their walled garden, and fights against anyone setting up macOS on non
mac devices or vice versa, and Windows pays a lot to make it the default
OS on basically everything else. And of course, it's pretty hard to move between them at will due to the inherit differences in UI and UX.
On 10/18/2025 4:00 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote at 00:49 this Friday (GMT):
On Oct 16, 2025 at 5:15:02 PM MST, "Ant" wrote <10cs1q6$oj7d$4@dont-email.me>:
In alt.comp.os.windows-11 Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 14, 2025 at 10:30:15?PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<HjGHQ.199859$RB68.119732@fx39.iad>:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and >>>>>> foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it. There are too many goodies >>>>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else. The fanboy in me has >>>>>> reemerged. I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers can't >>>>>> keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution is best
for everyone. Best luck with it.
Ditto. I use all.
I find it sad how people get so "religious" over OSs, sports, and so many >>> other things. I do sorta get that way about politics, but only the extremes.
IMO it was kinda intentional. I mean, Apple pretty explicitly set up
their walled garden, and fights against anyone setting up macOS on non
mac devices or vice versa, and Windows pays a lot to make it the default
OS on basically everything else. And of course, it's pretty hard to move
between them at will due to the inherit differences in UI and UX.
You think Microsoft uses its financial prowess to keep hold of the
industry? I actually think people genuinely see Winblows as the default operating system. And why not, I like using it too, I'm only slightly ashamed to admit. I miss Linux, though. But the goodies in Win11 are
just too great to overlook.
On Oct 18, 2025 at 2:11:07 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <LnTIQ.481516$p8E9.419324@fx18.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 4:00 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
Apple pretty explicitly set up
their walled garden, and fights against anyone setting up macOS on non
mac devices or vice versa, and Windows pays a lot to make it the default >>> OS on basically everything else. And of course, it's pretty hard to move >>> between them at will due to the inherit differences in UI and UX.
You think Microsoft uses its financial prowess to keep hold of the
industry? I actually think people genuinely see Winblows as the default
operating system. And why not, I like using it too, I'm only slightly
ashamed to admit. I miss Linux, though. But the goodies in Win11 are
just too great to overlook.
I have been going over some of the benefits of macOS as I see them. I would love to see others go into benefits of Windows and Linux.
There are some obvious ones:
Linux:
* Open Source
* Free (as in no cost)
* Can tweak the UI / pick different distros
* CLI is second to none
* Very secure
* Lightweight options for older hardware
* Flexible in terms of how much power
Windows:
* Gaming
* Tons of software choice
* Legacy apps
* Wide hardware support
I am sure I am leaving out a LOT. What I really would like is a task-based list. Copy and paste of files might be one (macOS now has it, too). In the past window snapping and the like would count. Maybe even virtual desktops. But what about in-app benefits? I am SURE they exist but off hand not thinking
of any.
On Oct 18, 2025 at 2:11:07 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <LnTIQ.481516$p8E9.419324@fx18.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 4:00 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote at 00:49 this Friday (GMT):
On Oct 16, 2025 at 5:15:02 PM MST, "Ant" wrote <10cs1q6$oj7d$4@dont-email.me>:
In alt.comp.os.windows-11 Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 14, 2025 at 10:30:15?PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<HjGHQ.199859$RB68.119732@fx39.iad>:
Not methamphetamine, I'm talking about embracing Windows again, and >>>>>>> foregoing GNU/Linux, as much as I like it. There are too many goodies >>>>>>> in Win11 to think about using anything else. The fanboy in me has >>>>>>> reemerged. I'm still advocating Linux for people whose computers can't >>>>>>> keep up with Winblows, though.
Linux, Windows, macOS -- each has pros and cons and no one solution is best
for everyone. Best luck with it.
Ditto. I use all.
I find it sad how people get so "religious" over OSs, sports, and so many >>>> other things. I do sorta get that way about politics, but only the extremes.
IMO it was kinda intentional. I mean, Apple pretty explicitly set up
their walled garden, and fights against anyone setting up macOS on non
mac devices or vice versa, and Windows pays a lot to make it the default >>> OS on basically everything else. And of course, it's pretty hard to move >>> between them at will due to the inherit differences in UI and UX.
You think Microsoft uses its financial prowess to keep hold of the
industry? I actually think people genuinely see Winblows as the default
operating system. And why not, I like using it too, I'm only slightly
ashamed to admit. I miss Linux, though. But the goodies in Win11 are
just too great to overlook.
I have been going over some of the benefits of macOS as I see them. I would love to see others go into benefits of Windows and Linux.
On 10/18/2025 6:35 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 2:11:07 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <LnTIQ.481516$p8E9.419324@fx18.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 4:00 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
Apple pretty explicitly set up
their walled garden, and fights against anyone setting up macOS on non >>> mac devices or vice versa, and Windows pays a lot to make it the default >>> OS on basically everything else. And of course, it's pretty hard to move >>> between them at will due to the inherit differences in UI and UX.
You think Microsoft uses its financial prowess to keep hold of the
industry? I actually think people genuinely see Winblows as the default >> operating system. And why not, I like using it too, I'm only slightly
ashamed to admit. I miss Linux, though. But the goodies in Win11 are
just too great to overlook.
I have been going over some of the benefits of macOS as I see them. I would love to see others go into benefits of Windows and Linux.
There are some obvious ones:
Linux:
* Open Source
This is true.
* Free (as in no cost)
And this.
* CLI is second to none
Perhaps, though I think MS should get a lot of credit for PowerShell.
Windows:
* Gaming
You would love to see your trolling gaining some traction snit. Nothing
more and nothing less.
Time to pack up your tents and relocate elsewhere because you have worn out your welcome many years ago.
And you can take Joel "Jesus Christ" Crump with you. Yes, Joel does believe he is indeed Jesus Christ, the son of man.
Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo
Cuckoo.
This boy Joel is on some serious shit.
On 10/18/2025 6:35 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 2:11:07 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<LnTIQ.481516$p8E9.419324@fx18.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 4:00 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
Apple pretty explicitly set up
their walled garden, and fights against anyone setting up macOS on non >>>> mac devices or vice versa, and Windows pays a lot to make it the default >>>> OS on basically everything else. And of course, it's pretty hard to move >>>> between them at will due to the inherit differences in UI and UX.
You think Microsoft uses its financial prowess to keep hold of the
industry? I actually think people genuinely see Winblows as the default >>> operating system. And why not, I like using it too, I'm only slightly
ashamed to admit. I miss Linux, though. But the goodies in Win11 are
just too great to overlook.
I have been going over some of the benefits of macOS as I see them. I would >> love to see others go into benefits of Windows and Linux.
There are some obvious ones:
Linux:
* Open Source
This is true.
* Free (as in no cost)
And this.
* Can tweak the UI / pick different distros
Good point.
* CLI is second to none
Perhaps, though I think MS should get a lot of credit for PowerShell.
* Very secure
It's remarkable.
* Lightweight options for older hardware
Nothing is better for an old computer than Linux, yup.
* Flexible in terms of how much power
Windows:
* Gaming
* Tons of software choice
* Legacy apps
* Wide hardware support
I am sure I am leaving out a LOT. What I really would like is a task-based >> list. Copy and paste of files might be one (macOS now has it, too). In the >> past window snapping and the like would count. Maybe even virtual desktops. >> But what about in-app benefits? I am SURE they exist but off hand not thinking
of any.
I just find that there are significant advantages to running Windows
apps natively. Then again, there are specific areas where the apps for
Linux are even better. But I have sold out, as it were, again, to MS.
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 19:07:34 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/18/2025 6:35 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 2:11:07 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<LnTIQ.481516$p8E9.419324@fx18.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 4:00 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
Apple pretty explicitly set up
their walled garden, and fights against anyone setting up macOS on non >>>>> mac devices or vice versa, and Windows pays a lot to make it the default >>>>> OS on basically everything else. And of course, it's pretty hard to move >>>>> between them at will due to the inherit differences in UI and UX.
You think Microsoft uses its financial prowess to keep hold of the
industry? I actually think people genuinely see Winblows as the default >>>> operating system. And why not, I like using it too, I'm only slightly >>>> ashamed to admit. I miss Linux, though. But the goodies in Win11 are >>>> just too great to overlook.
I have been going over some of the benefits of macOS as I see them. I would >>> love to see others go into benefits of Windows and Linux.
There are some obvious ones:
Linux:
* Open Source
This is true.
* Free (as in no cost)
And this.
It's "free" as in "free speech" as well as "free beer".
* CLI is second to none
Perhaps, though I think MS should get a lot of credit for PowerShell.
Ugh.
Windows:
* Gaming
Steam Decks run Linux.
Nothing wrong with running Windows games on Linux. _Someone_ is stuck
with 10-year-old ideas about Linux.
Example: Printing: uses CUPS -- same as Apple. So saving to PDF is just as easy,
if not easier.
I just find that there are significant advantages to running Windows
apps natively. Then again, there are specific areas where the apps for
Linux are even better. But I have sold out, as it were, again, to MS.
Have any examples? This is YEARS old and maybe no longer accurate -- the app is now in version 3 and this is about the beta... but RonB in here spoke of how amazing Scrivener was. I tested it. The macOS version had all sorts of benefits. Here were the ones at the time:
On 10/18/2025 8:16 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might
see it.
Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is what >>> I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
Cmd-Tab. Next?
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
On 10/18/2025 9:08 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might >>>>>> see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is
what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
Cmd-Tab. Next?
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
So what? The keyboard's right next to your trackpad.
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they make it harder than it should be intuitively.
On 10/18/2025 10:20 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 6:16:11 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<vqMIQ.596886$k_17.493944@fx10.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 9:08 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might >>>>>>>> see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif >>>>>>> initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is >>>>>>> what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon
desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
So what? The keyboard's right next to your trackpad.
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they make it >>> harder than it should be intuitively.
It does take some getting used to -- but it also saves screen real estate
which is still a big things on phones.
Screen space is one thing, functionality should be the prime factor though. It's a deal-breaker, for me, with the iPhone, I have to have Samsung's UI.
On 10/18/2025 12:14 AM, Alan wrote:
The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a feature
you can articulate.
Do so now, please.
See my screenshot of my phone, in another post here.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
On 10/18/2025 12:13 AM, Alan wrote:
How hard would it be for Apple to add the UI features in question?
What "features" would those be?
https://i.imgur.com/5nqESxp.jpeg
See the button on the bottom left. When I tap it, I get a screen
with all the running apps to flip between. On an iPhone, it's a
tricky process to navigate between apps.
Not tricky at all. Just not understood by you.
And the Android method takes up valuable screen real estate with
buttons that are there all the time...
...where as iOS uses (gasp!) gestures!
<https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/2024/06/ios-18-makes-iphone-
more- personal-capable-and-intelligent-than-ever/article/Apple-WWDC24-
iOS-18- Messages-via-satellite-240610_inline.jpg.large.jpg>
See that horizontal bar at the bottom of the screen?
Well if you flick upward from below that...
...you're back one of the home screens of apps.
If you're not on the first page, then another flick takes you there.
And if you want to move between open apps? Well just flick upward and
hold for a moment. All the running apps will be show so you can flick
between them.
It seems utterly retarded, to me.
On 10/17/2025 8:27 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many opportunities >>>> to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it when necessary.
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the
typical Mac user is brain dead.
What proportion of Mac users do you think are atypical, Joel?
Difficult to estimate, but it's the minority for sure. Most Mac users
are people who have a lot of money to spend, and dislike normal
software, but aren't especially great at comprehending tech.
On 10/17/2025 9:12 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 17:24, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:38 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 09:57, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 12:28 PM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 10:44:50 -0400
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
[One must] pay *extra* for AppleCare? That is so stupid it
baffles me. They
can't even guarantee an overpriced product will last, unless you pay >>>>>>> extra for that. Just retarded.
It's a whole different business model; just leave the Apple guys
alone.
They are "happy" or "suckers" - it depends on what where you sit.
You have a point, they're never going to listen to me, because they >>>>> are so averse to Windows and/or Linux.
I'm not "averse" to either of them, dipshit.
I use Windows quite regularly and while I don't have many
opportunities to use Linux, I'm certainly not averse to using it
when necessary.
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the
typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
I purchased a MacBook, as I have said, in 2010, Snow Leopard era. I
wanted to experience it for myself. There were some things I
appreciated about it, in fact, but overall, it got to be too weird, and
I deleted OS X/macOS.
At Fri, 17 Oct 2025 20:02:55 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 19:05, vallor wrote:
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:23:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead
<pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 10:43, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 1:25 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Intuitive depends on what you are trained on and use every >>>>>>>>>> day. There is nothing counterintuitive about Mac OS or iOS >>>>>>>>>> unless you are coming from Windows or Android. Going the other >>>>>>>>>> way is just as difficult.
I can figure out most Windows and Linux software, just by using >>>>>>>>> it. Not so with Mac software, it's confusing AF, there's no
coherence to the UI.
I shouldn't have to be "trained" to use a GUI.
IMO that says more about you than it says about macOS and iOS.
Yeah, I don't like right-brained, inspired by brain-damage from
LSD use, crapware, you're right.
And yet you cannot articulate (do you even know what "articulate"
means?) a single concrete example of how it fails.
Got it.
I know what articulate means. I don't remember a specific example,
though. It's fairly common to macOS software, though.
So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
It's different than Windows... ...but is it worse?
And with a menubar that is "all the way at the top"...
...all you need to do is "fling" your mouse upward and you always arrive
on the menubar.
It requires LESS precision than a menubar attached to a window.
You don't understand that "quirky" doesn't mean "what I'm not used to"...
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
...do you?
No, "quirky" means "different than the rest of the field...just
because".
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app
to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can
continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback
if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively.
One example is how I communicate with my long-distance GF - in Linux, Telegram is the only workable app for a video/voice call. In
Windows, WhatsApp is an option. Also, I have a link to my my text
messages in my phone. Most of what I do can be done in Linux,
though, but I'm just appreciating having the freedom to compute with
the state-of-the-art OS without any effort.
One example is how I communicate with my long-distance GF - in Linux, Telegram is the only workable app for a video/voice call. In Windows, WhatsApp is an option. Also, I have a link to my my text messages in my phone. Most of what I do can be done in Linux, though, but I'm just appreciating having the freedom to compute with the state-of-the-art OS without any effort.
On 2025-10-18 06:01, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:16 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might >>>>> see it.
Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is
what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
Cmd-Tab. Next?
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows?
The taskbar?
On 2025-10-18 06:16, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 9:08 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might >>>>>>> see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is >>>>>> what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
So what? The keyboard's right next to your trackpad.
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they make
it harder than it should be intuitively.
"Different" doesn't mean "missing".
On 2025-10-17 23:14, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app >>>>> to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can >>> continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback
if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively.
You mean by...
...oh, wild guess...
...select "Quit" from the application's name menu...
...which is always in exactly the same place...
...because macOS menus are always at the top of the screen...
...(making them an infinitely tall target)...
...and the menu with the app's name is always immediately to the left of
the Apple menu?
That's too difficult for you, is it?
On 2025-10-18 07:25, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 10:20 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 6:16:11 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<vqMIQ.596886$k_17.493944@fx10.iad>:
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they
make it
harder than it should be intuitively.
It does take some getting used to -- but it also saves screen real
estate
which is still a big things on phones.
Screen space is one thing, functionality should be the prime factor
though. It's a deal-breaker, for me, with the iPhone, I have to have
Samsung's UI.
You're telling me you're unable to learn a simple UI GESTURE?
The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a
feature you can articulate.
Do so now, please.
See my screenshot of my phone, in another post here.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
And the Android method takes up valuable screen real estate with
buttons that are there all the time...
...where as iOS uses (gasp!) gestures!
<https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/2024/06/ios-18-makes-iphone-
more- personal-capable-and-intelligent-than-ever/article/Apple-
WWDC24- iOS-18- Messages-via-satellite-240610_inline.jpg.large.jpg>
See that horizontal bar at the bottom of the screen?
Well if you flick upward from below that...
...you're back one of the home screens of apps.
If you're not on the first page, then another flick takes you there.
And if you want to move between open apps? Well just flick upward and
hold for a moment. All the running apps will be show so you can flick
between them.
It seems utterly retarded, to me.
Because you're learning-impaired?
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the
typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
I purchased a MacBook, as I have said, in 2010, Snow Leopard era. I
wanted to experience it for myself. There were some things I
appreciated about it, in fact, but overall, it got to be too weird,
and I deleted OS X/macOS.
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
On 2025-10-17 23:14, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an
app to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes
can
continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a
drawback if one wants to close out the process through the GUI
intuitively.
You mean by...
...oh, wild guess...
...select "Quit" from the application's name menu...
...which is always in exactly the same place...
...because macOS menus are always at the top of the screen...
...(making them an infinitely tall target)...
...and the menu with the app's name is always immediately to the left of
the Apple menu?
That's too difficult for you, is it?
One example is how I communicate with my long-distance GF - in Linux,
Telegram is the only workable app for a video/voice call. In
Windows, WhatsApp is an option. Also, I have a link to my my text
messages in my phone. Most of what I do can be done in Linux,
though, but I'm just appreciating having the freedom to compute with
the state-of-the-art OS without any effort.
Zoom works, too, with the Linux native app. Discord, too.
And MS Teams, through the web page.
Don't know about Google Meet, but would be surprised if that didn't
work.
It does bug me that web.whatsapp.com doesn't support voice or video on
Linux, but at least I can text with my family using a keyboard, instead
of fiddling around with a phone.
On 2025-10-17 21:26, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 12:14 AM, Alan wrote:
The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a feature >>>>> you can articulate.
Do so now, please.
See my screenshot of my phone, in another post here.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
On 10/18/2025 7:32 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I just find that there are significant advantages to running Windows
apps natively. Then again, there are specific areas where the apps for
Linux are even better. But I have sold out, as it were, again, to MS.
Have any examples? This is YEARS old and maybe no longer accurate -- the app >> is now in version 3 and this is about the beta... but RonB in here spoke of >> how amazing Scrivener was. I tested it. The macOS version had all sorts of >> benefits. Here were the ones at the time:
One example is how I communicate with my long-distance GF - in Linux, Telegram is the only workable app for a video/voice call. In Windows, WhatsApp is an option. Also, I have a link to my my text messages in my phone. Most of what I do can be done in Linux, though, but I'm just appreciating having the freedom to compute with the state-of-the-art OS without any effort.
On 10/18/2025 8:35 PM, Alan wrote:
The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a
feature you can articulate.
Do so now, please.
See my screenshot of my phone, in another post here.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
On 10/18/2025 8:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 06:16, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 9:08 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might >>>>>>> see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif >>>>>> initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is >>>>>> what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
So what? The keyboard's right next to your trackpad.
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they make
it harder than it should be intuitively.
"Different" doesn't mean "missing".
Yeah but this is supposed to be a phone that everyone wants, and they
have the nerve to wonder why Google created Android, and Samsung ran
with it, that's the whole thing, Samsung delivers what serious people
want, Apple expects you to just accept their junk, because it's from them.
On 2025-10-17 23:14, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app >>>>> to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can >>> continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback
if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively.
You mean by...
...oh, wild guess...
...select "Quit" from the application's name menu...
...which is always in exactly the same place...
...because macOS menus are always at the top of the screen...
...(making them an infinitely tall target)...
...and the menu with the app's name is always immediately to the left of
the Apple menu?
That's too difficult for you, is it?
Perhaps, though I think MS should get a lot of credit for PowerShell.
Telegram is the only app that makes it convenient. Zoom and Discord
wouldn't be that, Teams as a Web app is inferior. Don't know anything
about Google Meet.
On 10/18/2025 8:37 PM, Alan wrote:
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the >>>>> typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
I purchased a MacBook, as I have said, in 2010, Snow Leopard era. I
wanted to experience it for myself. There were some things I
appreciated about it, in fact, but overall, it got to be too weird,
and I deleted OS X/macOS.
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
But that's the funny thing, Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
On Oct 18, 2025 at 8:40:59 PM EDT, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 23:14, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app >>>>> to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can >>> continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback >> if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively.
You mean by...
...oh, wild guess...
...select "Quit" from the application's name menu...
...which is always in exactly the same place...
...because macOS menus are always at the top of the screen...
...(making them an infinitely tall target)...
...and the menu with the app's name is always immediately to the left of the Apple menu?
Actually, the app's main menu is always immediately to the right of the Apple menu. And its the only one in *bold* font. But that is too difficult for people who don't like Macs.
That's too difficult for you, is it?
Yes, Macs are always "too difficult" for people who don't like Macs.
At Sun, 19 Oct 2025 01:15:26 +0000, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 8:40:59 PM EDT, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 23:14, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app >>>>>>> to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray. >>>>>
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can >>>>> continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback >>>> if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively.
You mean by...
...oh, wild guess...
...select "Quit" from the application's name menu...
...which is always in exactly the same place...
...because macOS menus are always at the top of the screen...
...(making them an infinitely tall target)...
...and the menu with the app's name is always immediately to the left of >>> the Apple menu?
Actually, the app's main menu is always immediately to the right of the Apple
menu. And its the only one in *bold* font. But that is too difficult for
people who don't like Macs.
That's too difficult for you, is it?
Yes, Macs are always "too difficult" for people who don't like Macs.
I'll have you know that nothing, is too easy, for me.
Seriously though: I just verified this behavior:
When exiting a shell in a terminal session, the window stays behind. You have to click the close button (which is on the non-standard side, I might add),
then go to terminal > quit.
At least, that's the normal flow. I played around, and discovered I can go to Terminal > Quit directly to close the window and the application.
Still, it's
a far piece from ctrl-d to exit a shell on Linux terminal emulators...
One example is how I communicate with my long-distance GF - in Linux,
Telegram is the only workable app for a video/voice call. In Windows,
WhatsApp is an option. Also, I have a link to my my text messages in my
phone. Most of what I do can be done in Linux, though, but I'm just
appreciating having the freedom to compute with the state-of-the-art OS
without any effort.
Signal: it's cross-platform, secure and being FOSS, not beholden
to Evil Megacorp. When I last heard, it was the Admins' choice too.
On Oct 18, 2025 at 5:35:26 PM MST, "Alan" wrote <10d1boe$267v5$4@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-10-17 21:26, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 12:14 AM, Alan wrote:
The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a feature >>>>>> you can articulate.
Do so now, please.
See my screenshot of my phone, in another post here.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It is not as discoverable -- but it is more respectful of screen real estate.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 06:16, Joel W. Crump wrote:
the iPhone [is] missing the navigation button, they make
it harder than it should be intuitively.
"Different" doesn't mean "missing".
Yeah but this is supposed to be a phone that everyone wants, and they
have the nerve to wonder why Google created Android, and Samsung ran
with it, that's the whole thing, Samsung delivers what serious people
want, Apple expects you to just accept their junk, because it's from them.
This is plainly simple prejudice writ large and as such just
one more reason to discount your outlandish assertions.
On Oct 18, 2025 at 5:56:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <ZGWIQ.66567$P8zb.11001@fx04.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 8:37 PM, Alan wrote:
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the >>>>>> typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
I purchased a MacBook, as I have said, in 2010, Snow Leopard era. I
wanted to experience it for myself. There were some things I
appreciated about it, in fact, but overall, it got to be too weird,
and I deleted OS X/macOS.
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
But that's the funny thing, Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
There have been a lot of changes since Snow Leopard.
Launchpad has come and gone -- now replaced by a launcher in Spotlight.
Airdrop introduced. I just used it 10 min ago.
Built in versioning system for documents.
Notifications.
Pretty big UI redesign.
APFS file system.
iTunes split into different apps.
Control Center added.
Shortcuts app.
Desktop widgets.
Game mode.
Window management improvements.
Apple Intelligence (though it has a ways to go!)
That is just with a moment of searching. What changes have come to the Windows
world in the same time frame? A major UI change as well, Edge replaced IE, Snap layouts, Copilot AI, Tabs in the file explorer, and... MORE ADS!
I am sure I am leaving things out. For both.
On 10/18/2025 8:50 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 5:35:26 PM MST, "Alan" wrote
<10d1boe$267v5$4@dont-email.me>:
On 2025-10-17 21:26, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 12:14 AM, Alan wrote:
The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a feature >>>>>>> you can articulate.
Do so now, please.
See my screenshot of my phone, in another post here.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It is not as discoverable -- but it is more respectful of screen real estate.
Apple may want the "real estate" but I want to use the phone. That they determined the screen space was more important shows they're drain-bamaged.
On 10/18/2025 9:27 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 5:56:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<ZGWIQ.66567$P8zb.11001@fx04.iad>:
On 10/18/2025 8:37 PM, Alan wrote:
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, the >>>>>>> typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
I purchased a MacBook, as I have said, in 2010, Snow Leopard era. I >>>>> wanted to experience it for myself. There were some things I
appreciated about it, in fact, but overall, it got to be too weird,
and I deleted OS X/macOS.
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
But that's the funny thing, Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
There have been a lot of changes since Snow Leopard.
Launchpad has come and gone -- now replaced by a launcher in Spotlight.
Airdrop introduced. I just used it 10 min ago.
Built in versioning system for documents.
Notifications.
Pretty big UI redesign.
APFS file system.
iTunes split into different apps.
Control Center added.
Shortcuts app.
Desktop widgets.
Game mode.
Window management improvements.
Apple Intelligence (though it has a ways to go!)
That is just with a moment of searching. What changes have come to the Windows
world in the same time frame? A major UI change as well, Edge replaced IE, >> Snap layouts, Copilot AI, Tabs in the file explorer, and... MORE ADS!
I am sure I am leaving things out. For both.
You actually have a point there, that Windows is repackaged on the
whole. Win11 is Win10 with a change of clothes, or something.
I was
excited about it merely because it had been a long time since there was
a big change, but how big the change really was is self-evidently limited.
[iPhone] is more respectful of screen real estate [forgoing intuitive buttons].
Apple may want the "real estate" but I want to use the phone. That they
determined the screen space was more important shows they're drain-bamaged.
It is not about just what Apple wants. *I* want screen real estate. For me the
gesture is fine... BUT, sometimes the gestures to get that or the Control Center or the like do not work the first time. Likely user error, but it should be pretty dummy proof.
On 10/18/2025 10:52 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
It is not about just what Apple wants. *I* want screen real estate. For me the[iPhone] is more respectful of screen real estate [forgoing intuitive buttons].
Apple may want the "real estate" but I want to use the phone. That they >>> determined the screen space was more important shows they're drain-bamaged. >>
gesture is fine... BUT, sometimes the gestures to get that or the Control
Center or the like do not work the first time. Likely user error, but it
should be pretty dummy proof.
I would end up hating the device altogether. Which is probably why I've
only used Samsung smartphones, to date.
On 2025-10-18, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
David B. <BD@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
On 17/10/2025 23:01, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-17, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:LOL !
On 2025-10-17 06:28, Joel W. Crump wrote:
…
So it drives you crazy that a different product doesn't work in the way >>>>>> that YOU happen to know.
Got it.
Old Joel is going to be in a real bag of hurt next time he gets a new (or >>>>> new-to-him) car.
…because the controls & buttons layouts vary not only by Make, but also by
Model and Year.
-hh
There is no question about that.
My 24 Mustang is basically a computer on wheels.
Pretty much everything is controlled through the touch screen.
Plus there’s vast layout variations in button layouts even without them
being usurped by touchscreens. Joel will be curled up in a little ball of >> cope failure.
It took me a heck of a time getting used to it however once properly set up
I rarely need to change anything on the fly and I like the ability to customize
things like the gauge display. Want it to look like a Cobra? Foxbody?Race track?
etc it's easy peasy and fun to play around with.
There’s similarly been pretty interesting variations n just where the
ignition switch (and now button) have been located. I’ve already had right
side dash, left side dash, right side steering column, & center console.
I was reluctant at first but now that I have gotten used to it why deal with
an oil pressure gauge with a hose running into the engine compartment like >>>> my 72 Dodge Hemi had?
There is no way I personally want to return to that technology.
Things are just to smooth, informative and easy these days.
Until they break of course :)
That's what service contracts are for.
Still better than a hose leaking oil all voer the interior of the car though.
Troubleshooting of vacuum hose leaks critical to an analog computer control >> system was no picnic either.
My Dad had a Dodge with the "Lean Burn system". You haven't experienced pain until
you've had to troubleshoot that nightmare of hoses and electromechanical devices.
Fortunately his friend was a mechanic for a NYC yellow taxi company which used
Chrysler products back then and he knew the system from top to bottom.
If you own one of these .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGbnCfwouSA
I am envious!
Nah. They just took the cheapest V8 model & added an aftermarket turbo kit >> to it.
My model is the top trim not a Dark Horse though as they were way over priced at the
time and difficult to purchase.
And mine is not a turbo.
It's a Ford installed supercharger.
Factory and Ford performance warranty included. <https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6066-M8800>
At Fri, 17 Oct 2025 20:02:55 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 19:05, vallor wrote:
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:23:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead
<pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
…
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
It's different than Windows... ...but is it worse?
And with a menubar that is "all the way at the top"...
...all you need to do is "fling" your mouse upward and you always arrive
on the menubar.
It requires LESS precision than a menubar attached to a window.
You don't understand that "quirky" doesn't mean "what I'm not used to"...
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
...do you?
No, "quirky" means "different than the rest of the field...just
because".
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025 21:01:14 -0400, Joel W. Crump wrote:
Telegram is the only app that makes it convenient. Zoom and Discord
wouldn't be that, Teams as a Web app is inferior. Don't know anything
about Google Meet.
The current IT guy is a MS alumni and pushes Teams. We used Slack except when dealing with him.
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
At Fri, 17 Oct 2025 20:02:55 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 19:05, vallor wrote:
At Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:23:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead
<pothead@snakebite.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18, Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/17/2025 3:34 PM, Alan wrote:So you dislike Apple / MacOS yet you are unable to give specific
…
examples why? Sounds kind of lame to me.
How about: you close all of an app's windows, but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
It's different than Windows... ...but is it worse?
And with a menubar that is "all the way at the top"...
...all you need to do is "fling" your mouse upward and you always arrive >>> on the menubar.
It requires LESS precision than a menubar attached to a window.
You don't understand that "quirky" doesn't mean "what I'm not used to"... >>>
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
...do you?
No, "quirky" means "different than the rest of the field...just
because".
I’d say that “quirky” is that the behavior changes within the OS. For example, one App which shuts down when it’s last window is closed, whereas another App stays running.
FWIW, I can recall when the default behavior was to shut down the App when last window was closed .. it was a real productivity headache when working with multiple files where closing down work in one also shut down the App being used to edit..was happy to see the editor not quit, although it did take a little bit of getting used to remembering to deliberately shut down--
an App once one was definitively done with it. Seems that within the Unix world of being explicit with commands that this makes more sense & is internally consistent.
-hh
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)" >>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
The reduced color palette from the .gif doesn't do it justice. Could
I persuade you to post a .png? ;)
At Sun, 19 Oct 2025 11:47:46 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
The reduced color palette from the .gif doesn't do it justice. Could
I persuade you to post a .png? ;)
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
On 10/19/2025 11:47 AM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
You're clever, but yeah, who could care less about Mac.
vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> wrote:
[...]
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
The reduced color palette from the .gif doesn't do it justice. Could
I persuade you to post a .png? ;)
The first thing I do with a new install is change the wallpaper
and the desktop for something far less garish.
On Oct 19, 2025 at 11:07:11 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <jN9JQ.689746$xYr1.451346@fx14.iad>:
On 10/19/2025 11:47 AM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
You're clever, but yeah, who could care less about Mac.
I could care less... meaning I care some. :)
On 10/19/2025 2:24 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 19, 2025 at 11:07:11 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<jN9JQ.689746$xYr1.451346@fx14.iad>:
On 10/19/2025 11:47 AM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
You're clever, but yeah, who could care less about Mac.
I could care less... meaning I care some. :)
I do understand why you like it, though, Brock. You're tuned in, as it
were. It's reasonable, and I see the same in Alan, I respect that.
On Oct 19, 2025 at 8:47:46 AM MST, "Paul" wrote <10d3174$2jrrs$1@dont-email.me>:
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)" >>>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
What value do you get from such imagining?
At Sun, 19 Oct 2025 11:47:46 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
The reduced color palette from the .gif doesn't do it justice. Could
I persuade you to post a .png? ;)
On 10/19/2025 11:47 AM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
You're clever, but yeah, who could care less about Mac.
On Sun, 10/19/2025 12:15 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 19, 2025 at 8:47:46 AM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10d3174$2jrrs$1@dont-email.me>:
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
What value do you get from such imagining?
I owned three Macs, but I can't say I ever got a big buzz
over the contents of the descending task bar. Some of my
time was spent in Terminal, some in Classic applications
(the reason for owning a Mac G4 and supporting applications
licensed by my work). The provided browser at the time,
worked on about 50% of web sites, and bringing in a
Firefox.dmg fixed that.
Paul--
On Oct 19, 2025 at 9:31:53 PM MST, "Paul" wrote <10d4dvn$2vf6n$2@dont-email.me>:
On Sun, 10/19/2025 12:15 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 19, 2025 at 8:47:46 AM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10d3174$2jrrs$1@dont-email.me>:
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
What value do you get from such imagining?
I owned three Macs, but I can't say I ever got a big buzz
over the contents of the descending task bar. Some of my
time was spent in Terminal, some in Classic applications
(the reason for owning a Mac G4 and supporting applications
licensed by my work). The provided browser at the time,
worked on about 50% of web sites, and bringing in a
Firefox.dmg fixed that.
It did not work with all, but more than 50%. Still, I get the annoyance at it not. I used (and still use) Chrome as needed.
On 20/10/2025 06:34, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 19, 2025 at 9:31:53 PM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10d4dvn$2vf6n$2@dont-email.me>:
On Sun, 10/19/2025 12:15 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 19, 2025 at 8:47:46 AM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10d3174$2jrrs$1@dont-email.me>:
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
What value do you get from such imagining?
I owned three Macs, but I can't say I ever got a big buzz
over the contents of the descending task bar. Some of my
time was spent in Terminal, some in Classic applications
(the reason for owning a Mac G4 and supporting applications
licensed by my work). The provided browser at the time,
worked on about 50% of web sites, and bringing in a
Firefox.dmg fixed that.
It did not work with all, but more than 50%. Still, I get the annoyance at it
not. I used (and still use) Chrome as needed.
Please will you explain what you are talking about?
(I've not had my first coffee of the day yet!!!)
Thanks.
On Oct 20, 2025 at 1:03:49 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote <mlm8n6FakjbU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 20/10/2025 06:34, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 19, 2025 at 9:31:53 PM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10d4dvn$2vf6n$2@dont-email.me>:
On Sun, 10/19/2025 12:15 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 19, 2025 at 8:47:46 AM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10d3174$2jrrs$1@dont-email.me>:
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
What value do you get from such imagining?
I owned three Macs, but I can't say I ever got a big buzz
over the contents of the descending task bar. Some of my
time was spent in Terminal, some in Classic applications
(the reason for owning a Mac G4 and supporting applications
licensed by my work). The provided browser at the time,
worked on about 50% of web sites, and bringing in a
Firefox.dmg fixed that.
It did not work with all, but more than 50%. Still, I get the annoyance at it
not. I used (and still use) Chrome as needed.
Please will you explain what you are talking about?
(I've not had my first coffee of the day yet!!!)
Thanks.
There are times Safari is not well supported by sites -- so it is good to have
a secondary browser on macOS. This has become more rare, but it still does happen.
There are times Safari is not well supported by sites -- so it is good to have
a secondary browser on macOS. This has become more rare, but it still does happen.
On 20/10/2025 12:18, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 1:03:49 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlm8n6FakjbU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 20/10/2025 06:34, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I used (and still use) Chrome as needed.
Please will you explain what you are talking about?
(I've not had my first coffee of the day yet!!!)
Thanks.
There are times Safari is not well supported by sites -- so it is good
to have
a secondary browser on macOS. This has become more rare, but it still
does
happen.
Oh! I see. I've always had a number of different browsers available on
all my of my computers and operating systems over the years.
Thanks.
On 20/10/2025 12:18, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 1:03:49 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlm8n6FakjbU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 20/10/2025 06:34, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 19, 2025 at 9:31:53 PM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10d4dvn$2vf6n$2@dont-email.me>:
On Sun, 10/19/2025 12:15 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 19, 2025 at 8:47:46 AM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10d3174$2jrrs$1@dont-email.me>:
On Fri, 10/17/2025 11:41 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:36 PM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
Paul
What value do you get from such imagining?
I owned three Macs, but I can't say I ever got a big buzz
over the contents of the descending task bar. Some of my
time was spent in Terminal, some in Classic applications
(the reason for owning a Mac G4 and supporting applications
licensed by my work). The provided browser at the time,
worked on about 50% of web sites, and bringing in a
Firefox.dmg fixed that.
It did not work with all, but more than 50%. Still, I get the annoyance at it
not. I used (and still use) Chrome as needed.
Please will you explain what you are talking about?
(I've not had my first coffee of the day yet!!!)
Thanks.
There are times Safari is not well supported by sites -- so it is good to have
a secondary browser on macOS. This has become more rare, but it still does >> happen.
Oh! I see. I've always had a number of different browsers available on
all my of my computers and operating systems over the years.
Thanks.
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote:
There are times Safari is not well supported by sites -- so it is good to have
a secondary browser on macOS. This has become more rare, but it still does >> happen.
In my experience it's exceedingly rare that Safari can't cope.
On 10/18/2025 8:37 PM, Alan wrote:
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock,
the typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
I purchased a MacBook, as I have said, in 2010, Snow Leopard era. I
wanted to experience it for myself. There were some things I
appreciated about it, in fact, but overall, it got to be too weird,
and I deleted OS X/macOS.
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
But that's the funny thing, Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock,
the typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
I purchased a MacBook, as I have said, in 2010, Snow Leopard era. I >>>> wanted to experience it for myself. There were some things I
appreciated about it, in fact, but overall, it got to be too weird,
and I deleted OS X/macOS.
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
But that's the funny thing, Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
On 10/20/2025 12:13 PM, Alan wrote:
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, >>>>>>> the typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
I purchased a MacBook, as I have said, in 2010, Snow Leopard era.
I wanted to experience it for myself. There were some things I
appreciated about it, in fact, but overall, it got to be too weird, >>>>> and I deleted OS X/macOS.
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
But that's the funny thing, Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
As far as I can tell, I'm right. Apple is dullard software produced by dullards for other dullards, at an extreme cost. It's a fucking cult
and I won't back down from that. I loathe businesses that extort people who don't know any better than to use something else.
On 10/18/2025 8:36 PM, Alan wrote:
And the Android method takes up valuable screen real estate with
buttons that are there all the time...
...where as iOS uses (gasp!) gestures!
<https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/2024/06/ios-18-makes-iphone-
more- personal-capable-and-intelligent-than-ever/article/Apple-
WWDC24- iOS-18- Messages-via-satellite-240610_inline.jpg.large.jpg>
See that horizontal bar at the bottom of the screen?
Well if you flick upward from below that...
...you're back one of the home screens of apps.
If you're not on the first page, then another flick takes you there.
And if you want to move between open apps? Well just flick upward
and hold for a moment. All the running apps will be show so you can
flick between them.
It seems utterly retarded, to me.
Because you're learning-impaired?
I'm not that, though, I just don't have time to "learn" Apple's goofy
BS. They can keep that shit.
On 10/18/2025 8:35 PM, Alan wrote:
The iPhone is missing features.
Like what?
To claim you know it has a "missing feature" you MUST have a
feature you can articulate.
Do so now, please.
See my screenshot of my phone, in another post here.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 06:01, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:16 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
If one is substantially better than the other than I think we
might see it.
Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is >>>>> what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional.
Cmd-Tab. Next?
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows?
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps efficiently.
On 10/18/2025 8:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 06:16, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 9:08 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we might >>>>>>>> see it. Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif >>>>>>> initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, is >>>>>>> what I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon
desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
So what? The keyboard's right next to your trackpad.
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they make
it harder than it should be intuitively.
"Different" doesn't mean "missing".
Yeah but this is supposed to be a phone that everyone wants, and they
have the nerve to wonder why Google created Android, and Samsung ran
with it, that's the whole thing, Samsung delivers what serious people
want, Apple expects you to just accept their junk, because it's from them.
On 10/18/2025 8:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 07:25, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 10:20 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 6:16:11 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<vqMIQ.596886$k_17.493944@fx10.iad>:
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they
make it
harder than it should be intuitively.
It does take some getting used to -- but it also saves screen real
estate
which is still a big things on phones.
Screen space is one thing, functionality should be the prime factor
though. It's a deal-breaker, for me, with the iPhone, I have to have
Samsung's UI.
You're telling me you're unable to learn a simple UI GESTURE?
Yes. It sucks ass.
On Oct 18, 2025 at 8:40:59 PM EDT, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 23:14, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app >>>>>> to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can >>>> continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback >>> if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively.
You mean by...
...oh, wild guess...
...select "Quit" from the application's name menu...
...which is always in exactly the same place...
...because macOS menus are always at the top of the screen...
...(making them an infinitely tall target)...
...and the menu with the app's name is always immediately to the left of
the Apple menu?
Actually, the app's main menu is always immediately to the right of the Apple menu. And its the only one in *bold* font. But that is too difficult for people who don't like Macs.
That's too difficult for you, is it?
Yes, Macs are always "too difficult" for people who don't like Macs.
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
But that's the funny thing, Apple never really changes anything,
from what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with
Snow Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
As far as I can tell, I'm right. Apple is dullard software produced
by dullards for other dullards, at an extreme cost. It's a fucking
cult and I won't back down from that. I loathe businesses that extort
people who don't know any better than to use something else.
But you've admitted you cannot "tell" about anything based on experience.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
On 2025-10-18 17:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 06:01, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:16 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we
might see it.
Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif
initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions,
is what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop
environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows?
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps
efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS" thing yet?
On 2025-10-18 17:51, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 07:25, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 10:20 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 6:16:11 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<vqMIQ.596886$k_17.493944@fx10.iad>:
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they
make it
harder than it should be intuitively.
It does take some getting used to -- but it also saves screen real
estate
which is still a big things on phones.
Screen space is one thing, functionality should be the prime factor
though. It's a deal-breaker, for me, with the iPhone, I have to
have Samsung's UI.
You're telling me you're unable to learn a simple UI GESTURE?
Yes. It sucks ass.
You just admitted to being learning impaired.
On 10/20/2025 12:13 PM, Alan wrote:
You're an exceptional user, in my experience, Alan, as is Brock, >>>>>>> the typical Mac user is brain dead.
You admit to having no actual experience, so...
I purchased a MacBook, as I have said, in 2010, Snow Leopard era. I >>>>> wanted to experience it for myself. There were some things I
appreciated about it, in fact, but overall, it got to be too weird,
and I deleted OS X/macOS.
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
But that's the funny thing, Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
As far as I can tell, I'm right.
Apple is dullard software produced by--
dullards for other dullards, at an extreme cost. It's a fucking cult
and I won't back down from that. I loathe businesses that extort people
who don't know any better than to use something else.
On 10/20/2025 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 17:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 06:01, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:16 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we
might see it.
Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif >>>>>>> initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, >>>>>>> is what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows? >>>>
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps
efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS" thing yet?
I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
On 10/20/2025 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 17:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 06:01, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:16 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we >>>>>>> might see it.
Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif >>>>>> initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, >>>>>> is what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows? >>>
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps
efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS" thing yet?
I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
At Sun, 19 Oct 2025 01:15:26 +0000, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 8:40:59 PM EDT, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 23:14, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app >>>>>>> to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray. >>>>>
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can >>>>> continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback >>>> if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively.
You mean by...
...oh, wild guess...
...select "Quit" from the application's name menu...
...which is always in exactly the same place...
...because macOS menus are always at the top of the screen...
...(making them an infinitely tall target)...
...and the menu with the app's name is always immediately to the left of >>> the Apple menu?
Actually, the app's main menu is always immediately to the right of the Apple
menu. And its the only one in *bold* font. But that is too difficult for
people who don't like Macs.
That's too difficult for you, is it?
Yes, Macs are always "too difficult" for people who don't like Macs.
I'll have you know that nothing, is too easy, for me.
Seriously though: I just verified this behavior:
When exiting a shell in a terminal session, the window stays behind. You have to click the close button (which is on the non-standard side, I might add),
then go to terminal > quit.
At least, that's the normal flow. I played around, and discovered I can go to Terminal > Quit directly to close the window and the application. Still, it's
a far piece from ctrl-d to exit a shell on Linux terminal emulators...
On 10/17/2025 11:58 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top
menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows
software has, and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard to
explain without a specific example, it's been too long since I've used a >>> Mac to give one, but that's what I recall.
With the menu: I get it. With older machines having one menu saved
screen real
estate and the distance was small to get to it. And having it at the
top makes
it "infinitely tall" and easier / more efficient to use.
But screens have grown. When you have multiple windows and the menu is
always
at the top left, even for a window on the right, that is awkward. I do
not use
menus often -- I use a lot of hot keys and toolbars -- but I *DO* use
them,
and of course many use them more.
The "infinitely tall" benefit is still there... and I like the search
in the
"Help" menu. MacOS also has more consistent terms and locations and
hot keys
in menus -- so there are also advantages. But I absolutely can see
where the
single menu can be not just confusing for a Windows user but seen as less
intuitive -- the controls are not a part of the window where you are
trying to
control something.
As far the rest of your comment -- not sure what you mean by "robust".
Meaning essentially that Windows developers put more thought into the
GUI, that Mac developers tend to under-utilize UI features such that the apps have arbitrary ways of handling features, counterintuitive, not
well thought out.
At Fri, 17 Oct 2025 19:59:44 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 18:37, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 8:48 PM, Alan wrote:
Clue time:
What you've LEARNED TO DO isn't automatically what is INTUITIVE.
I can learn most Windows or Linux software without study, without
real effort. I get lost with a lot of Mac apps. It's
counterintuitive.
Because you've learned lots before.
When you started out with both of them, you were just as clueless.
That's really not it, there's a fundamental difference in the UI
with Mac software.
No. There really is not.
And despite your claim, you admit you're not even able to describe
that that "fundamental difference" is supposed to be.
Was menu-bar-at-the-top-there not a fundamental enough
difference?
On 10/17/2025 8:27 PM, Alan wrote:
I had always wanted a Corolla, until I saw the Elantra my mom
bought this year, I get to drive it a fair bit when we're together, >>>>> and I am sold on them.
I'm sure the controls in the driver's position aren't all exactly
the same...
...so how do you deal with the "quirkware" of that?
:-)
True, it is very inconsistent between makers, one just has to hope
it's relatively intuitive. Any new vehicle will likely take some
getting used to.
Funny how you can see how that's true for cars...
...but completely lose it when it's about technology.
It's an apples/oranges comparison, I think. Software for Windows and
Linux tends to be intuitive in a way software for macOS doesn't, in my experience.
On Oct 20, 2025 at 9:33:34 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <yvtJQ.805525$2R62.655239@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 17:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 06:01, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:16 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we >>>>>>>>> might see it.
Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif >>>>>>>> initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, >>>>>>>> is what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows? >>>>>
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps
efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS" thing yet? >>
I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
If you prefer a more Windows-like Dock you can use third parties to get one on
macOS. Here is one choice:
https://lawand.io/taskbar/
On Oct 20, 2025 at 9:17:03 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <3gtJQ.204488$ol44.96718@fx33.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:13 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
As far as I can tell, I'm right.
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world over this same time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? Here are just some changes (from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit improvements, Grand Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, AirDrop, iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game Centre, Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps apps, better multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & Handoff,
iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System Integrity Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, web Apple Pay
integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media, Safari privacy
tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, new Mac App
Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split (Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar
(iPad as display), read-only system volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.), Control Centre on
Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad), AirPlay to Mac, Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity Camera, Freeform app, System Settings replaces System Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more video-conferencing tools,
Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight overhaul,
native Phone app, last major version to support Intel Macs.
On 10/20/2025 12:23 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps? >>>>>>
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is >>>>>> implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
On 10/20/2025 12:21 PM, Alan wrote:
So you admit to no experience in 15 years.
But that's the funny thing, Apple never really changes anything,
from what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with >>>>> Snow Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
As far as I can tell, I'm right. Apple is dullard software produced
by dullards for other dullards, at an extreme cost. It's a fucking
cult and I won't back down from that. I loathe businesses that
extort people who don't know any better than to use something else.
But you've admitted you cannot "tell" about anything based on experience.
Prove me wrong.
On 10/20/2025 12:35 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 9:17:03 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<3gtJQ.204488$ol44.96718@fx33.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:13 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
As far as I can tell, I'm right.
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world over
this same
time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? Here are just some
changes
(from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit improvements,
Grand
Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, AirDrop, >> iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game Centre,
Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps apps,
better
multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & Handoff,
iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System
Integrity
Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, web
Apple Pay
integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media, Safari
privacy
tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, new
Mac App
Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split (Music/TV/Podcasts),
Sidecar
(iPad as display), read-only system volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.), Control
Centre on
Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad), AirPlay to
Mac,
Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity Camera,
Freeform app, System Settings replaces System Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more video-conferencing
tools,
Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight
overhaul,
native Phone app, last major version to support Intel Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
On Oct 20, 2025 at 9:33:34 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <yvtJQ.805525$2R62.655239@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 17:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows? >>>>>
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps
efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS" thing yet? >>
If you prefer a more Windows-like Dock you can use third parties to get one on
macOS. Here is one choice:
https://lawand.io/taskbar/
On 10/20/2025 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 17:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 06:01, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:16 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Cmd-Tab. Next?If one is substantially better than the other than I think we >>>>>>>> might see it.
Any thoughts on tasks?
Navigating between running apps is a basic one, I think the motif >>>>>>> initially seen in Windows 95, and evolving through the versions, >>>>>>> is what
I find most functional, which is why I like the Cinnamon desktop >>>>>>> environment under Linux, and see macOS's design as less functional. >>>>>>
That's a keyboard method, though, not a point-and-click method.
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows? >>>>
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps
efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS" thing
yet?
I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
On 10/20/2025 12:25 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 17:51, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:34 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 07:25, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 10:20 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 6:16:11 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<vqMIQ.596886$k_17.493944@fx10.iad>:
It's kind of like the iPhone missing the navigation button, they >>>>>>> make it
harder than it should be intuitively.
It does take some getting used to -- but it also saves screen real >>>>>> estate
which is still a big things on phones.
Screen space is one thing, functionality should be the prime factor >>>>> though. It's a deal-breaker, for me, with the iPhone, I have to
have Samsung's UI.
You're telling me you're unable to learn a simple UI GESTURE?
Yes. It sucks ass.
You just admitted to being learning impaired.
I would rather not have to learn something lame.
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 12:33:34 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 17:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows? >>>>>
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps
efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS" thing yet? >>
I think you're just throwing sh*t up against the wall and hoping some sticks.
On 2025-10-17 21:22, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:58 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top
menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows >>>> software has, and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard to
explain without a specific example, it's been too long since I've
used a
Mac to give one, but that's what I recall.
With the menu: I get it. With older machines having one menu saved
screen real
estate and the distance was small to get to it. And having it at the
top makes
it "infinitely tall" and easier / more efficient to use.
But screens have grown. When you have multiple windows and the menu
is always
at the top left, even for a window on the right, that is awkward. I
do not use
menus often -- I use a lot of hot keys and toolbars -- but I *DO* use
them,
and of course many use them more.
The "infinitely tall" benefit is still there... and I like the search
in the
"Help" menu. MacOS also has more consistent terms and locations and
hot keys
in menus -- so there are also advantages. But I absolutely can see
where the
single menu can be not just confusing for a Windows user but seen as
less
intuitive -- the controls are not a part of the window where you are
trying to
control something.
As far the rest of your comment -- not sure what you mean by "robust".
Meaning essentially that Windows developers put more thought into the
GUI, that Mac developers tend to under-utilize UI features such that
the apps have arbitrary ways of handling features, counterintuitive,
not well thought out.
Give a SINGLE EXAMPLE OF THIS.
On 2025-10-18 18:36, vallor wrote:
At Sun, 19 Oct 2025 01:15:26 +0000, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 8:40:59 PM EDT, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 23:14, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file.
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app >>>>>>> to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray. >>>>>
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can
continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback >>>> if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively.
You mean by...
...oh, wild guess...
...select "Quit" from the application's name menu...
...which is always in exactly the same place...
...because macOS menus are always at the top of the screen...
...(making them an infinitely tall target)...
...and the menu with the app's name is always immediately to the left of >>> the Apple menu?
Actually, the app's main menu is always immediately to the right of the Apple
menu. And its the only one in *bold* font. But that is too difficult for >> people who don't like Macs.
That's too difficult for you, is it?
Yes, Macs are always "too difficult" for people who don't like Macs.
I'll have you know that nothing, is too easy, for me.
Seriously though: I just verified this behavior:
When exiting a shell in a terminal session, the window stays behind. You have to click the close button (which is on the non-standard side, I might add),
then go to terminal > quit.
I don't know what version of macOS you're using, but when I exit a
shell, my version of Terminal closes the Window.>
At least, that's the normal flow. I played around, and discovered I can go to Terminal > Quit directly to close the window and the application. Still, it's
a far piece from ctrl-d to exit a shell on Linux terminal emulators...
Are you familiar with the term "tempest in teacup"?
Seriously, this are trivial differences between how two systems operate.
You not being used to one way doesn't make that way bad.
On 10/20/2025 12:40 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 9:33:34 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<yvtJQ.805525$2R62.655239@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 17:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows? >>>>>>
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps >>>>> efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS" thing yet?
I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
If you prefer a more Windows-like Dock you can use third parties to get one on
macOS. Here is one choice:
https://lawand.io/taskbar/
Pretty good, if a little on the expensive side.
On 10/20/2025 12:35 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 9:17:03 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<3gtJQ.204488$ol44.96718@fx33.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:13 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow
Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
As far as I can tell, I'm right.
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world over this same
time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? Here are just some changes
(from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit improvements, Grand
Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, AirDrop, >> iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game Centre,
Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps apps, better >> multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & Handoff,
iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System Integrity >> Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, web Apple Pay
integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media, Safari privacy
tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, new Mac App
Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split (Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar
(iPad as display), read-only system volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.), Control Centre on
Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad), AirPlay to Mac, >> Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity Camera,
Freeform app, System Settings replaces System Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more video-conferencing tools,
Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight overhaul,
native Phone app, last major version to support Intel Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps? >>>>>>>
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is >>>>>>> implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a >>>> chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a control
you don't need all the time.
On 2025-10-20 09:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 12:35 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 9:17:03 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<3gtJQ.204488$ol44.96718@fx33.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:13 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow >>>>>> Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
As far as I can tell, I'm right.
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world over
this same
time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? Here are just some
changes
(from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit improvements, >>> Grand
Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps,
AirDrop,
iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game Centre, >>> Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps apps,
better
multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity &
Handoff,
iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System
Integrity
Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, web
Apple Pay
integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media, Safari
privacy
tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, new >>> Mac App
Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split (Music/TV/
Podcasts), Sidecar
(iPad as display), read-only system volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.), Control
Centre on
Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad), AirPlay to >>> Mac,
Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity Camera, >>> Freeform app, System Settings replaces System Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more video-
conferencing tools,
Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight >>> overhaul,
native Phone app, last major version to support Intel Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people started switching to macOS?
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about Windows? >>>>>
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps
efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS"
thing yet?
I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
In what way?
How is the Dock less "efficient" than the Windows Taskbar?
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world over this same
time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? Here are just some changes
(from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit improvements, Grand
Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, AirDrop, >>> iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game Centre, >>> Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps apps, better
multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & Handoff,
iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System Integrity
Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, web Apple Pay
integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media, Safari privacy
tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, new Mac App
Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split (Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar
(iPad as display), read-only system volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.), Control Centre on
Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad), AirPlay to Mac,
Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity Camera, >>> Freeform app, System Settings replaces System Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more video-conferencing tools,
Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight overhaul,
native Phone app, last major version to support Intel Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
What from Windows or Linux would you consider more significant. Remember, I am
5 year or so out of date with them, so NOT saying they have nothing. I really do not know.
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between
apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which
it is implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone
is a chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a
control you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
On 10/20/2025 1:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world
over this same time? What makes you think macOS has changed less?
Here are just some changes (from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit
improvements, Grand Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps,
AirDrop, iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game
Centre, Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps
apps, better multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & >>> Handoff, iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System
Integrity Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch,
web Apple Pay integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media,
Safari privacy tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks,
new Mac App Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split
(Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar (iPad as display), read-only system
volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.),
Control Centre on Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed
system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad),
AirPlay to Mac, Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity
Camera, Freeform app, System Settings replaces System
Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more
video-conferencing tools, Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight >>> overhaul, native Phone app, last major version to support Intel
Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
What from Windows or Linux would you consider more significant.
Remember, I am 5 year or so out of date with them, so NOT saying
they have nothing. I really do not know.
It's less than Windows or Linux does more groundbreaking stuff than
that Apple has a material *need* to do that, and isn't doing it.
On 10/20/2025 12:40 PM, vallor wrote:
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 12:33:34 -0400, "Joel W. Crump"
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-18 17:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about
Windows?
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between apps >>>>> efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS"
thing yet?
I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
I think you're just throwing sh*t up against the wall and hoping some
sticks.
Nope, I have a real problem with Apple, and I'm broadcasting it. It's a vendetta.
On 10/20/2025 12:49 PM, Alan wrote:
What is the "point-and-click" method to which you refer about
Windows?
The taskbar?
Yep, in Windows, or using Cinnamon in Linux, I can jump between
apps efficiently.
And the Mac has the DOCK, which does EXACTLY THAT.
Are you seeing the whole "[you] don't know anything about macOS"
thing yet?
I remember the "dock". It's not as efficient as Windows or Cinnamon.
In what way?
How is the Dock less "efficient" than the Windows Taskbar?
If it were as good, it'd be in Windows. Microsoft does their research. Then again, Apple does to an extent, they research weird people's
habits, it seems, and prey on that to get their money.
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps? >>>>>>>>
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it >>>>>>>> is implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is >>>>> a chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a
control you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:12:20 -0400, "Joel W. Crump"
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between >>>>>>>>> apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which
it is implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone
is a chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a
control you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
My Google Pixel 9 Pro has no such button.
I just asked Chatty, and it says I can add the button, or (by default)...swipe up and hold for one second.
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:18:27 -0400, "Joel W. Crump"
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world
over this same time? What makes you think macOS has changed less?
Here are just some changes (from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit
improvements, Grand Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps,
AirDrop, iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game
Centre, Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps
apps, better multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & >>>>> Handoff, iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System
Integrity Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch,
web Apple Pay integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media,
Safari privacy tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks,
new Mac App Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split
(Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar (iPad as display), read-only system
volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.),
Control Centre on Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed
system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad),
AirPlay to Mac, Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity
Camera, Freeform app, System Settings replaces System
Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more
video-conferencing tools, Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight >>>>> overhaul, native Phone app, last major version to support Intel
Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
What from Windows or Linux would you consider more significant.
Remember, I am 5 year or so out of date with them, so NOT saying
they have nothing. I really do not know.
It's less than Windows or Linux does more groundbreaking stuff than
that Apple has a material *need* to do that, and isn't doing it.
If you weren't providing cover for you-know-who over there, you could
ask Chatty and rattle off the changes in Linux over the last FIFTEEN
FREAKIN YEARS...
(Of course, _he_ won't do that, because he's not _genuinely_
curious...)
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a
control you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
So should your screen be completely covered in buttons?
On 10/20/2025 1:25 PM, vallor wrote:
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:18:27 -0400, "Joel W. Crump"
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world
over this same time? What makes you think macOS has changed less?
Here are just some changes (from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit
improvements, Grand Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, >>>>> AirDrop, iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game
Centre, Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps
apps, better multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & >>>>> Handoff, iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System >>>>> Integrity Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, >>>>> web Apple Pay integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media,
Safari privacy tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, >>>>> new Mac App Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split
(Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar (iPad as display), read-only system
volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.),
Control Centre on Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed
system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad),
AirPlay to Mac, Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity
Camera, Freeform app, System Settings replaces System
Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more
video-conferencing tools, Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight >>>>> overhaul, native Phone app, last major version to support Intel
Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
What from Windows or Linux would you consider more significant.
Remember, I am 5 year or so out of date with them, so NOT saying
they have nothing. I really do not know.
It's less than Windows or Linux does more groundbreaking stuff than
that Apple has a material *need* to do that, and isn't doing it.
If you weren't providing cover for you-know-who over there, you could
ask Chatty and rattle off the changes in Linux over the last FIFTEEN FREAKIN YEARS...
(Of course, _he_ won't do that, because he's not _genuinely_
curious...)
Who are you referring to?
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:43:36 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:25 PM, vallor wrote:
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:18:27 -0400, "Joel W. Crump"
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world
over this same time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? >>>>>>> Here are just some changes (from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit
improvements, Grand Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, >>>>>>> AirDrop, iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game >>>>>>> Centre, Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps
apps, better multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & >>>>>>> Handoff, iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System >>>>>>> Integrity Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, >>>>>>> web Apple Pay integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media,
Safari privacy tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, >>>>>>> new Mac App Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split
(Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar (iPad as display), read-only system >>>>>>> volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.),
Control Centre on Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed >>>>>>> system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad),
AirPlay to Mac, Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity >>>>>>> Camera, Freeform app, System Settings replaces System
Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more
video-conferencing tools, Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight >>>>>>> overhaul, native Phone app, last major version to support Intel
Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
What from Windows or Linux would you consider more significant.
Remember, I am 5 year or so out of date with them, so NOT saying
they have nothing. I really do not know.
It's less than Windows or Linux does more groundbreaking stuff than
that Apple has a material *need* to do that, and isn't doing it.
If you weren't providing cover for you-know-who over there, you could
ask Chatty and rattle off the changes in Linux over the last FIFTEEN
FREAKIN YEARS...
(Of course, _he_ won't do that, because he's not _genuinely_
curious...)
Who are you referring to?
The...person...that could ask Chatty to rattle off all the changes in
MacOS over the last SIXTEEN YEARS, but couldn't be bothered to do that
for Linux -- instead, asking you to do his homework for him.
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:43:36 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:25 PM, vallor wrote:
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:18:27 -0400, "Joel W. Crump"
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world
over this same time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? >>>>>>> Here are just some changes (from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit
improvements, Grand Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, >>>>>>> AirDrop, iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game >>>>>>> Centre, Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps
apps, better multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & >>>>>>> Handoff, iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System >>>>>>> Integrity Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, >>>>>>> web Apple Pay integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media,
Safari privacy tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, >>>>>>> new Mac App Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split
(Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar (iPad as display), read-only system >>>>>>> volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.),
Control Centre on Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed >>>>>>> system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad),
AirPlay to Mac, Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity >>>>>>> Camera, Freeform app, System Settings replaces System
Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more
video-conferencing tools, Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight >>>>>>> overhaul, native Phone app, last major version to support Intel
Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
What from Windows or Linux would you consider more significant.
Remember, I am 5 year or so out of date with them, so NOT saying
they have nothing. I really do not know.
It's less than Windows or Linux does more groundbreaking stuff than
that Apple has a material *need* to do that, and isn't doing it.
If you weren't providing cover for you-know-who over there, you could
ask Chatty and rattle off the changes in Linux over the last FIFTEEN
FREAKIN YEARS...
(Of course, _he_ won't do that, because he's not _genuinely_
curious...)
Who are you referring to?
The...person...that could ask Chatty to rattle off all the changes in
MacOS over the last SIXTEEN YEARS, but couldn't be bothered to do that
for Linux -- instead, asking you to do his homework for him.
On 10/20/2025 1:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world over this same
time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? Here are just some changes
(from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit improvements, Grand
Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, AirDrop,
iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game Centre, >>>> Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps apps, better
multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & Handoff,
iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System Integrity
Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, web Apple Pay
integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media, Safari privacy
tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, new Mac App
Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split (Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar
(iPad as display), read-only system volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.), Control Centre on
Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad), AirPlay to Mac,
Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity Camera, >>>> Freeform app, System Settings replaces System Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more video-conferencing tools,
Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight overhaul,
native Phone app, last major version to support Intel Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
What from Windows or Linux would you consider more significant. Remember, I am
5 year or so out of date with them, so NOT saying they have nothing. I really
do not know.
It's less than Windows or Linux does more groundbreaking stuff than that Apple has a material *need* to do that, and isn't doing it.
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps? >>>>>>>>
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is >>>>>>>> implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a >>>>> chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
On 10/20/2025 1:55 PM, vallor wrote:
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:43:36 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:25 PM, vallor wrote:
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:18:27 -0400, "Joel W. Crump"
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world >>>>>>> over this same time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? >>>>>>> Here are just some changes (from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit
improvements, Grand Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, >>>>>>> AirDrop, iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game >>>>>>> Centre, Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps >>>>>>> apps, better multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity &
Handoff, iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System >>>>>>> Integrity Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, >>>>>>> web Apple Pay integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media, >>>>>>> Safari privacy tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, >>>>>>> new Mac App Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split
(Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar (iPad as display), read-only system >>>>>>> volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.),
Control Centre on Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed >>>>>>> system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad),
AirPlay to Mac, Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity >>>>>>> Camera, Freeform app, System Settings replaces System
Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more
video-conferencing tools, Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight
overhaul, native Phone app, last major version to support Intel >>>>>>> Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
What from Windows or Linux would you consider more significant.
Remember, I am 5 year or so out of date with them, so NOT saying
they have nothing. I really do not know.
It's less than Windows or Linux does more groundbreaking stuff than
that Apple has a material *need* to do that, and isn't doing it.
If you weren't providing cover for you-know-who over there, you could
ask Chatty and rattle off the changes in Linux over the last FIFTEEN
FREAKIN YEARS...
(Of course, _he_ won't do that, because he's not _genuinely_
curious...)
Who are you referring to?
The...person...that could ask Chatty to rattle off all the changes in
MacOS over the last SIXTEEN YEARS, but couldn't be bothered to do that
for Linux -- instead, asking you to do his homework for him.
Ohh, I see what you were saying. You think Snit was using AI chat to generate that list. Maybe.
In any event, I think all the platforms
will have such a list, at the end of the day, but Apple is still lacking
the minute details I'm demanding of a GUI.
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps? >>>>>>>>>
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is >>>>>>>>> implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a >>>>>> chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 15:04:25 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:55 PM, vallor wrote:
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:43:36 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:25 PM, vallor wrote:
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 13:18:27 -0400, "Joel W. Crump"
<joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/20/2025 1:00 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world >>>>>>>>> over this same time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? >>>>>>>>> Here are just some changes (from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit
improvements, Grand Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps, >>>>>>>>> AirDrop, iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game >>>>>>>>> Centre, Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps >>>>>>>>> apps, better multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity &
Handoff, iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System >>>>>>>>> Integrity Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, >>>>>>>>> web Apple Pay integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media, >>>>>>>>> Safari privacy tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks, >>>>>>>>> new Mac App Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split
(Music/TV/Podcasts), Sidecar (iPad as display), read-only system >>>>>>>>> volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.), >>>>>>>>> Control Centre on Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed >>>>>>>>> system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad), >>>>>>>>> AirPlay to Mac, Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity >>>>>>>>> Camera, Freeform app, System Settings replaces System
Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more
video-conferencing tools, Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight
overhaul, native Phone app, last major version to support Intel >>>>>>>>> Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
What from Windows or Linux would you consider more significant.
Remember, I am 5 year or so out of date with them, so NOT saying >>>>>>> they have nothing. I really do not know.
It's less than Windows or Linux does more groundbreaking stuff than >>>>>> that Apple has a material *need* to do that, and isn't doing it.
If you weren't providing cover for you-know-who over there, you could >>>>> ask Chatty and rattle off the changes in Linux over the last FIFTEEN >>>>> FREAKIN YEARS...
(Of course, _he_ won't do that, because he's not _genuinely_
curious...)
Who are you referring to?
The...person...that could ask Chatty to rattle off all the changes in
MacOS over the last SIXTEEN YEARS, but couldn't be bothered to do that
for Linux -- instead, asking you to do his homework for him.
Ohh, I see what you were saying. You think Snit was using AI chat to
generate that list. Maybe.
"Maybe?" Go read what he wrote.
(Unless you think he's fibbing about the source?)
In any event, I think all the platforms
will have such a list, at the end of the day, but Apple is still lacking
the minute details I'm demanding of a GUI.
Can you please, for the sake of argument, articulate a few of those
minute details?
I mean, really: I've named two so far, and I'm not even peeved at MacOS. Give us your laundry list. Rant away!
In any event, I think all the platforms
will have such a list, at the end of the day, but Apple is still lacking >>> the minute details I'm demanding of a GUI.
Can you please, for the sake of argument, articulate a few of those
minute details?
I mean, really: I've named two so far, and I'm not even peeved at MacOS.
Give us your laundry list. Rant away!
I would begin by mentioning its "Finder" file browser. It's wildly
inferior, last I checked, to Windows File Explorer, and Nemo in Linux.
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps? >>>>>>>>>>
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is >>>>>>>>>> implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a >>>>>>> chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a control >>>> you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great because
they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* phones do you?
On Oct 20, 2025 at 12:41:17 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <xfwJQ.1026162$ctz9.104665@fx16.iad>:
In any event, I think all the platforms
will have such a list, at the end of the day, but Apple is still lacking >>>> the minute details I'm demanding of a GUI.
Can you please, for the sake of argument, articulate a few of those
minute details?
I mean, really: I've named two so far, and I'm not even peeved at MacOS. >>> Give us your laundry list. Rant away!
I would begin by mentioning its "Finder" file browser. It's wildly
inferior, last I checked, to Windows File Explorer, and Nemo in Linux.
In what way?
I have heard Windows is getting something like QuickLook. So it is getting that very useful feature, but macOS has had it for years.
Has "Services" which allows for a lot of customized features.
Cutting / Pasting to move files is now in the Finder, but was not for years.
Windows and Linux, I think, have better third party service integration.
I am sure I am leaving out a ton.
On Oct 20, 2025 at 12:38:36 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <0dwJQ.1025990$ctz9.975202@fx16.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps? >>>>>>>>>>>
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is >>>>>>>>>>> implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a >>>>>>>> chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a control >>>>> you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great because
they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* phones do you?
So they did not say it but expect you to accept their rationale? One they did not give? Not sure I follow.
In any event, I think all the platforms
will have such a list, at the end of the day, but Apple is still lacking >>> the minute details I'm demanding of a GUI.
Can you please, for the sake of argument, articulate a few of those
minute details?
I mean, really: I've named two so far, and I'm not even peeved at MacOS.
Give us your laundry list. Rant away!
I would begin by mentioning its "Finder" file browser. It's wildly
inferior, last I checked, to Windows File Explorer, and Nemo in Linux.
It's possible I'm too far behind to know what I'm really talking about, though my faith in Apple, to have caught up, is negligible.
In any event, I think all the platforms
will have such a list, at the end of the day, but Apple is still lacking >>>> the minute details I'm demanding of a GUI.
Can you please, for the sake of argument, articulate a few of those
minute details?
I mean, really: I've named two so far, and I'm not even peeved at MacOS. >>> Give us your laundry list. Rant away!
I would begin by mentioning its "Finder" file browser. It's wildly
inferior, last I checked, to Windows File Explorer, and Nemo in Linux.
How about this: Why don't we look at some fairly mundane tasks. Tasks any OS can handle... but see how they do it (and how we as users do it). What is the workflow. Compare macOS, Linux, and Windows. We can come up with MANY examples, but here is one I have used in the past:
* Looking at online instructions (lesson plan, recipe, handyman stuff... whatever) do these tasks:
* Convert it to a PDF (print to PDF or the like).
* On the PDF add some annotations -- a step you want slightly changed, some text you want crossed out. Maybe highlighting some text and circle something.
* Assume you do not know the meaning of one of the words -- so look it up in a
dictionary.
* Save the PDF to a place you normally save such things to -- a Lesson Plans or Web Receipts or Recipes folder. This is something assumed to be common to you (even if just theoretically) so you can have a "Favorite" set up.
* After saving the PDF "realize" you want it in a different place or having a different name (or both). Make the appropriate changes.
* Record all of this and post it so it can be viewed by others. I tend to use ScreenFlow, which is not cheap, so for the purpose of this I could use built in tools for recording. Or just be honest I used a higher end one that gives me the ability to, say, edit what the mouse pointer looks like for ease of viewing.
NONE of this is hard on any of the OSs. But what is the workflow? Which OS / common apps make it easier? I think macOS would fare very well here. Does this
mean macOS will "win" on every task? NO! Of course not. But I think it will do
very well on most easy / common tasks. I also think you can find some less common -- but still real world tasks -- where it might do less well with.
And this is not really, to me, about "winning" -- it is about learning how other systems, and other people, do tasks. And, for me personally, I will get to learn things about other systems and I value THAT. The pissing contests... not really... but learning how to use tech better and growing to understand each of the options... THAT interests me.
It's possible I'm too far behind to know what I'm really talking about,
though my faith in Apple, to have caught up, is negligible.
It's quite plain that you simply equate 'different' with 'inferior'.
It should be pointed out that Snit is a well-known concern troll. He's already driving in tent stakes with his circus, by posting (and
reposting, as if anybody would miss it) his feud crap about Gremlin.
And the nonsense about close/exit/quit is old material that he is regurgitating from years ago. A word to the wise, eh?
On 10/20/2025 12:43 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-17 21:22, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:58 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
One aspect of my problem with Mac software is the reliance on the top >>>>> menu bar, it doesn't seem to have the robust UI flow that most Windows >>>>> software has, and Linux GUI software tends to have. It's hard to
explain without a specific example, it's been too long since I've
used a
Mac to give one, but that's what I recall.
With the menu: I get it. With older machines having one menu saved
screen real
estate and the distance was small to get to it. And having it at the
top makes
it "infinitely tall" and easier / more efficient to use.
But screens have grown. When you have multiple windows and the menu
is always
at the top left, even for a window on the right, that is awkward. I
do not use
menus often -- I use a lot of hot keys and toolbars -- but I *DO*
use them,
and of course many use them more.
The "infinitely tall" benefit is still there... and I like the
search in the
"Help" menu. MacOS also has more consistent terms and locations and
hot keys
in menus -- so there are also advantages. But I absolutely can see
where the
single menu can be not just confusing for a Windows user but seen as
less
intuitive -- the controls are not a part of the window where you are
trying to
control something.
As far the rest of your comment -- not sure what you mean by "robust".
Meaning essentially that Windows developers put more thought into the
GUI, that Mac developers tend to under-utilize UI features such that
the apps have arbitrary ways of handling features, counterintuitive,
not well thought out.
Give a SINGLE EXAMPLE OF THIS.
There are many in the macOS realm.
At Mon, 20 Oct 2025 09:42:35 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-18 18:36, vallor wrote:
At Sun, 19 Oct 2025 01:15:26 +0000, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
On Oct 18, 2025 at 8:40:59 PM EDT, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-17 23:14, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/18/2025 1:53 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 8:55:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad>:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:But you do not have an easy to see menu to, say, open a new file. >>>>>>>
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app >>>>>>>>> to stay
open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray. >>>>>>>
Also, with the app not quitting it opens faster, background processes can
continue, and you can command+tab back into the app easily.
There could be some advantage with that, but it could also be a drawback >>>>>> if one wants to close out the process through the GUI intuitively. >>>>>>
You mean by...
...oh, wild guess...
...select "Quit" from the application's name menu...
...which is always in exactly the same place...
...because macOS menus are always at the top of the screen...
...(making them an infinitely tall target)...
...and the menu with the app's name is always immediately to the left of >>>>> the Apple menu?
Actually, the app's main menu is always immediately to the right of the Apple
menu. And its the only one in *bold* font. But that is too difficult for >>>> people who don't like Macs.
That's too difficult for you, is it?
Yes, Macs are always "too difficult" for people who don't like Macs.
I'll have you know that nothing, is too easy, for me.
Seriously though: I just verified this behavior:
When exiting a shell in a terminal session, the window stays behind. You >>> have to click the close button (which is on the non-standard side, I might add),
then go to terminal > quit.
I don't know what version of macOS you're using, but when I exit a
shell, my version of Terminal closes the Window.>
Is there a setting for that? I looked for one, and I don't see it.
(Running Tahoe, it's up-to-date.)
At least, that's the normal flow. I played around, and discovered I can go >>> to Terminal > Quit directly to close the window and the application. Still, it'sAre you familiar with the term "tempest in teacup"?
a far piece from ctrl-d to exit a shell on Linux terminal emulators...
Seriously, this are trivial differences between how two systems operate.
You not being used to one way doesn't make that way bad.
I didn't say it was "bad", I said I didn't like it -- it's "quirky".
And I know why you would say the differences are "trivial". Indeed,
if they are truly "trivial", why use a Mac in the first place?
BTW, the new roundy-corners look a bit off, but I guess that'sYup. I remain uncertain about the new UI.
ultimately just cosmetics.
On 10/20/2025 1:38 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a
control you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
So should your screen be completely covered in buttons?
And there's the hyperbole, see, I win every time. :)
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between >>>>>>>>>> apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is >>>>>>>>>> implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a >>>>>>> chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a control >>>> you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great because
they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* phones do you?
On 10/20/2025 12:48 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 09:47, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 12:35 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 9:17:03 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<3gtJQ.204488$ol44.96718@fx33.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:13 PM, Alan wrote:
Apple never really changes anything, from
what I can tell. They're the same dull system they were with Snow >>>>>>> Leopard, repackaged.
"From what [you] can tell"?
You've admitted you have no experience.
As far as I can tell, I'm right.
What type changes have you seen in the Windows and Linux world over
this same
time? What makes you think macOS has changed less? Here are just
some changes
(from ChatGPT):
10.6 Snow Leopard (2009) – Focus on performance, 64-bit
improvements, Grand
Central Dispatch, OpenCL.
10.7 Lion (2011) – Launchpad, Mission Control, full-screen apps,
AirDrop,
iCloud beginnings.
10.8 Mountain Lion (2012) – Notification Centre, Messages, Game Centre, >>>> Gatekeeper.
10.9 Mavericks (2013) – Free update, Finder tabs, iBooks/Maps apps, >>>> better
multi-display support.
10.10 Yosemite (2014) – Flat “iOS-inspired” design, Continuity & >>>> Handoff,
iCloud Drive, new Spotlight.
10.11 El Capitan (2015) – Split View, Metal graphics API, System
Integrity
Protection.
10.12 Sierra (2016) – Siri on Mac, Auto Unlock with Apple Watch, web >>>> Apple Pay
integration.
10.13 High Sierra (2017) – APFS file system, HEVC/HEIF media, Safari >>>> privacy
tools.
10.14 Mojave (2018) – Dark Mode, Dynamic Desktop, Desktop Stacks,
new Mac App
Store.
10.15 Catalina (2019) – 64-bit only, iTunes split (Music/TV/
Podcasts), Sidecar
(iPad as display), read-only system volume.
11 Big Sur (2020) – Major UI redesign (rounded icons etc.), Control >>>> Centre on
Mac, full Apple Silicon support begins, signed system volume.
12 Monterey (2021) – Universal Control (between Mac/iPad), AirPlay
to Mac,
Shortcuts app on Mac, Focus modes.
13 Ventura (2022) – Stage Manager window management, Continuity Camera, >>>> Freeform app, System Settings replaces System Preferences.
14 Sonoma (2023) – Desktop widgets, Game Mode, more video-
conferencing tools,
Safari profiles, web apps.
26 Tahoe (2025) – New “Liquid Glass” UI redesign, major Spotlight >>>> overhaul,
native Phone app, last major version to support Intel Macs.
Sounds fine, but not groundbreaking.
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to Win8.
What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu, now what
do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a
control you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>> access the app-switching screen.
So should your screen be completely covered in buttons?
And there's the hyperbole, see, I win every time. :)
You don't even know what "winning" is.
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between >>>>>>>>>>> apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which >>>>>>>>>>> it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone >>>>>>>> is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a
control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great because
they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE like
the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're simpletons.
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu,
now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different method for app switching in iOS.
On 10/20/2025 3:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 12:41:17 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<xfwJQ.1026162$ctz9.104665@fx16.iad>:
In any event, I think all the platforms
will have such a list, at the end of the day, but Apple is still lacking >>>>> the minute details I'm demanding of a GUI.
Can you please, for the sake of argument, articulate a few of those
minute details?
I mean, really: I've named two so far, and I'm not even peeved at MacOS. >>>> Give us your laundry list. Rant away!
I would begin by mentioning its "Finder" file browser. It's wildly
inferior, last I checked, to Windows File Explorer, and Nemo in Linux.
In what way?
I have heard Windows is getting something like QuickLook. So it is getting >> that very useful feature, but macOS has had it for years.
That's actually kind of interesting. Not a feature I would use a lot,
but interesting.
Has "Services" which allows for a lot of customized features.
Cutting / Pasting to move files is now in the Finder, but was not for years.
That's what I was getting at, last I saw Finder it was lacking some relatively basic features.
Windows and Linux, I think, have better third party service integration.
I am sure I am leaving out a ton.
It's possible I'm too far behind to know what I'm really talking about, though my faith in Apple, to have caught up, is negligible.
On 10/20/2025 3:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 12:38:36 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<0dwJQ.1025990$ctz9.975202@fx16.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is >>>>>>>>>>>> implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a >>>>>>>>> chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a control >>>>>> you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great because
they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* phones do you?
So they did not say it but expect you to accept their rationale? One they did
not give? Not sure I follow.
It's implied, yeah, we're the one who designs it in America, not South
Korea, so it's better, meanwhile Samsung has people like me in its
pocket, because their devices are so superior.
On 10/20/2025 3:58 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
In any event, I think all the platforms
will have such a list, at the end of the day, but Apple is still lacking >>>>> the minute details I'm demanding of a GUI.
Can you please, for the sake of argument, articulate a few of those
minute details?
I mean, really: I've named two so far, and I'm not even peeved at MacOS. >>>> Give us your laundry list. Rant away!
I would begin by mentioning its "Finder" file browser. It's wildly
inferior, last I checked, to Windows File Explorer, and Nemo in Linux.
How about this: Why don't we look at some fairly mundane tasks. Tasks any OS >> can handle... but see how they do it (and how we as users do it). What is the
workflow. Compare macOS, Linux, and Windows. We can come up with MANY
examples, but here is one I have used in the past:
* Looking at online instructions (lesson plan, recipe, handyman stuff...
whatever) do these tasks:
* Convert it to a PDF (print to PDF or the like).
* On the PDF add some annotations -- a step you want slightly changed, some >> text you want crossed out. Maybe highlighting some text and circle something.
* Assume you do not know the meaning of one of the words -- so look it up in a
dictionary.
* Save the PDF to a place you normally save such things to -- a Lesson Plans >> or Web Receipts or Recipes folder. This is something assumed to be common to >> you (even if just theoretically) so you can have a "Favorite" set up.
* After saving the PDF "realize" you want it in a different place or having a
different name (or both). Make the appropriate changes.
* Record all of this and post it so it can be viewed by others. I tend to use
ScreenFlow, which is not cheap, so for the purpose of this I could use built >> in tools for recording. Or just be honest I used a higher end one that gives >> me the ability to, say, edit what the mouse pointer looks like for ease of >> viewing.
NONE of this is hard on any of the OSs. But what is the workflow? Which OS / >> common apps make it easier? I think macOS would fare very well here. Does this
mean macOS will "win" on every task? NO! Of course not. But I think it will do
very well on most easy / common tasks. I also think you can find some less >> common -- but still real world tasks -- where it might do less well with.
And this is not really, to me, about "winning" -- it is about learning how >> other systems, and other people, do tasks. And, for me personally, I will get
to learn things about other systems and I value THAT. The pissing contests...
not really... but learning how to use tech better and growing to understand >> each of the options... THAT interests me.
Small details make a big impact on workflow. I could be wrong, though,
if Finder has been improved over the years. Last I saw it, I couldn't
stand it. Win11 File Explorer with StartAllBack is pretty good. Nemo
in Linux in excellent.
On Oct 20, 2025 at 1:04:57 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <JBwJQ.534079$7Ika.463167@fx17.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 3:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 12:38:36 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<0dwJQ.1025990$ctz9.975202@fx16.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is >>>>>>>>>>>>> implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a >>>>>>>>>> chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a control >>>>>>> you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it, >>>>>> without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great because >>>> they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* phones do you?
So they did not say it but expect you to accept their rationale? One they did
not give? Not sure I follow.
It's implied, yeah, we're the one who designs it in America, not South
Korea, so it's better, meanwhile Samsung has people like me in its
pocket, because their devices are so superior.
Apple has a HUGE marketshare as well. Both have people who feel very strongly about them.
At least, that's the normal flow. I played around, and discovered I can go >>> to Terminal >Quit directly to close the window and the application. Still, >>> it'sAre you familiar with the term "tempest in teacup"?
a far piece from ctrl-d to exit a shell on Linux terminal emulators...
Seriously, this are trivial differences between how two systems operate.
You not being used to one way doesn't make that way bad.
I didn't say it was "bad", I said I didn't like it -- it's "quirky".
And I know why you would say the differences are "trivial". Indeed,
if they are truly "trivial", why use a Mac in the first place?
BTW, the new roundy-corners look a bit off, but I guess that's--
ultimately just cosmetics.
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu,
now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different
method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party utility?
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between >>>>>>>>>>>> apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which >>>>>>>>>>>> it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone >>>>>>>>> is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a
control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great because
they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE like
the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan. It's a direct observation of the facts. People stick with iPhone because they're not
on the level. People like me take the other trail.
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu,
now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different
method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party
utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have.
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
On 10/20/2025 6:50 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 1:04:57 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<JBwJQ.534079$7Ika.463167@fx17.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 3:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 12:38:36 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<0dwJQ.1025990$ctz9.975202@fx16.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:So they did not say it but expect you to accept their rationale? One they did
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it, >>>>>>> without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great because >>>>> they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* phones do you? >>>>
not give? Not sure I follow.
It's implied, yeah, we're the one who designs it in America, not South
Korea, so it's better, meanwhile Samsung has people like me in its
pocket, because their devices are so superior.
Apple has a HUGE marketshare as well. Both have people who feel very strongly
about them.
I know. It's puzzling.
Apple has a HUGE marketshare as well. Both have people who feel very strongly
about them.
I know. It's puzzling.
Not to me. There are many people who prefer them.
I like iPhones because of the connection with macOS... do not know modern Android enough to have much of an opinion about it.
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I >>>>> had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu, >>>>> now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different >>>> method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party
utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have.
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or
whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes >> have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I >>>>> had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu, >>>>> now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different >>>> method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party
utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have.
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or
whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes >> have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
On 10/20/2025 7:26 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Apple has a HUGE marketshare as well. Both have people who feel very strongly
about them.
I know. It's puzzling.
Not to me. There are many people who prefer them.
I like iPhones because of the connection with macOS... do not know modern
Android enough to have much of an opinion about it.
My mom does not have a Mac but uses the iPhone. It's kind of
interesting. She's always been on Windows laptops, one after another,
but she does love that iPhone.
On Oct 20, 2025 at 4:24:38 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <WwzJQ.481679$Fe_d.23319@fx09.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I >>>>>> had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to >>>>>> Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu, >>>>>> now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different >>>>> method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me >>>> her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party
utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have.
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or
whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes
have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
Instead of reinventing the wheel, this works well:
https://youtu.be/_j4-NTg3QsE
You can also have it so you can double-tab (or triple tap) the back of the phone to turn it on/off. You can also use the "action" button on phones with that button.
Sorry for second response... but just tested.
I can have it at the lower left corner... does not stop me from opening the dock folder I have there. Does cover it some though. Of course I can move it and control transparency.
I can have it so a single tap brings up the app switcher. That seems to be your preference.
A long tap brings up the menu... where I can have multiple options.
I like iPhones because of the connection with macOS... do not know modern >>> Android enough to have much of an opinion about it.
My mom does not have a Mac but uses the iPhone. It's kind of
interesting. She's always been on Windows laptops, one after another,
but she does love that iPhone.
Has she used Android? The last time I did it was on a <$50 phone... hardly a good comparison with my MUCH more expensive iPhone. Gee, the screen sucked, it
was slow, and the build quality felt horrid... what do you expect for 1/10th the cost?
On 10/20/2025 7:39 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 4:24:38 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<WwzJQ.481679$Fe_d.23319@fx09.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I >>>>>>> had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to >>>>>>> Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu, >>>>>>> now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different >>>>>> method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me >>>>> her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party >>>>> utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have.
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or
whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes
have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
Instead of reinventing the wheel, this works well:
https://youtu.be/_j4-NTg3QsE
You can also have it so you can double-tab (or triple tap) the back of the >> phone to turn it on/off. You can also use the "action" button on phones with >> that button.
I didn't catch exactly how it would create a button like I have on my
phone, but it was an interesting video.
On 10/20/2025 7:43 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Sorry for second response... but just tested.
I can have it at the lower left corner... does not stop me from opening the >> dock folder I have there. Does cover it some though. Of course I can move it >> and control transparency.
I can have it so a single tap brings up the app switcher. That seems to be >> your preference.
A long tap brings up the menu... where I can have multiple options.
Ahh, interesting.
On 10/20/2025 7:55 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
I like iPhones because of the connection with macOS... do not know modern >>>> Android enough to have much of an opinion about it.
My mom does not have a Mac but uses the iPhone. It's kind of
interesting. She's always been on Windows laptops, one after another,
but she does love that iPhone.
Has she used Android? The last time I did it was on a <$50 phone... hardly a>
good comparison with my MUCH more expensive iPhone. Gee, the screen sucked, >> it
was slow, and the build quality felt horrid... what do you expect for 1/10th >> the cost?
There are some really cheapo Android models out there, yeah. I've
always had nice ones from Samsung.
On Sun, 10/19/2025 2:07 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/19/2025 11:47 AM, Paul wrote:
"Install macOS on Windows 10/11 Using VirtualBox (Step-by-Step Guide)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdBarxP4nw
Good times.
Yes, it's a tight fit, but I think you can swing it.
I don't really have the hardware to effectively support a VM.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/jdKTvJDs/Big-Sur-4930-K-VM.gif
It is a bit of a porker. It took forever to install.
Now I don't know what to do with it. I'm trying to
imagine myself spending $800 to see that.
You're clever, but yeah, who could care less about Mac.
I wanted to show you could have toys to play with if you want.
I have an AI on the other machine, but it's in the same category
of "don't know what to do with it". If you give it too big a
problem, it'll take hours to come back (no accelerator).
It would be like playing chess on my ZX81 back in the day -- it
would take a 24 hour interval, just to play one game of chess.
Paul
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which >>>>>>>>>>>> it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. iPhone >>>>>>>>> is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a
control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great
because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian*
phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE like
the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're
simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It's a direct
observation of the facts.
People stick with iPhone because they're not
on the level.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu,
now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different
method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands meWell now you know how to switch apps on an iPhone.
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party utility?
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in which >>>>>>>>>>>>> it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a >>>>>>> control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it, >>>>>> without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great
because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian*
phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE
like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're
simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
Well now you know how to switch apps on an iPhone.Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start
menu, now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a
different method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands
me her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-
party utility?
Unless you're brain is full.
On Oct 20, 2025 at 5:14:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <CfAJQ.831372$2R62.757745@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:39 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 4:24:38 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<WwzJQ.481679$Fe_d.23319@fx09.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I >>>>>>>> had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to >>>>>>>> Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu, >>>>>>>> now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different >>>>>>> method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me >>>>>> her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party >>>>>> utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have.
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or >>>>> whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes
have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
Instead of reinventing the wheel, this works well:
https://youtu.be/_j4-NTg3QsE
You can also have it so you can double-tab (or triple tap) the back of the >>> phone to turn it on/off. You can also use the "action" button on phones with
that button.
I didn't catch exactly how it would create a button like I have on my
phone, but it was an interesting video.
It is not quite like Android. It does not sit at the bottom below everything else (I think that is how Android does it). It is a floating button you can move anywhere -- worded that way maybe it sounds like a benefit, BUT it is on top of the UI. In my quick testing this is not that big of a deal -- I can put
it on a bottom corner and it has minimal impact on clicking on the Dock icon. Minimal is not NONE though... and it is not standard. Does not help if you just want to use someone else's phone for a bit.
But it does offer a lot of options with one or few touches. Might not be exactly what you are used to, or even what you want, but might be close enough... and offer some benefits even.
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a >>>>>>>> control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it, >>>>>>> without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great
because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian*
phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE
like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're
simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a thing,And now you pivot away.
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from CSMA acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always really great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for tomorrow's price.
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
Well now you know how to switch apps on an iPhone.Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah,
I had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading
to Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start
menu, now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a
different method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands
me her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-
party utility?
Unless you're brain is full.
I will try to remember it, but it is clunky AF.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a thing,And now you pivot away.
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from CSMA
acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs
might have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always
really great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for
tomorrow's price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users don't CARE what the components inside are.
Well now you know how to switch apps on an iPhone.Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, >>>>>> I had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading >>>>>> to Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start >>>>>> menu, now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a
different method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands >>>> me her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-
party utility?
Unless you're brain is full.
I will try to remember it, but it is clunky AF.
You having a learning disability doesn't make something "clunky".
iOS's "swipe to switch" is easy to use and easy to learn.
On 21/10/2025 01:21, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 5:14:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<CfAJQ.831372$2R62.757745@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:39 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 4:24:38 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<WwzJQ.481679$Fe_d.23319@fx09.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I >>>>>>>>> had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to >>>>>>>>> Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu, >>>>>>>>> now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different >>>>>>>> method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me >>>>>>> her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party >>>>>>> utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have.
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or >>>>>> whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes
have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
Instead of reinventing the wheel, this works well:
https://youtu.be/_j4-NTg3QsE
You can also have it so you can double-tab (or triple tap) the back of the >>>> phone to turn it on/off. You can also use the "action" button on phones with
that button.
I didn't catch exactly how it would create a button like I have on my
phone, but it was an interesting video.
It is not quite like Android. It does not sit at the bottom below everything >> else (I think that is how Android does it). It is a floating button you can >> move anywhere -- worded that way maybe it sounds like a benefit, BUT it is on
top of the UI. In my quick testing this is not that big of a deal -- I can put
it on a bottom corner and it has minimal impact on clicking on the Dock icon.
Minimal is not NONE though... and it is not standard. Does not help if you >> just want to use someone else's phone for a bit.
But it does offer a lot of options with one or few touches. Might not be
exactly what you are used to, or even what you want, but might be close
enough... and offer some benefits even.
I've been using it for a LONG time now. It *IS* very useful ..... but sometimes gets right in the way of something else I'm trying to do!
Thanks for the video!
You really SHOULD be helping on the ASC forums with your depth of knowledge!!!
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a >>>>>>>>> control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it, >>>>>>>> without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great
because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian*
phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market >>>>> despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE
like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're
simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a thing,
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from CSMA
acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always really
great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for tomorrow's
price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
On 2025-10-21 10:40, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
Well now you know how to switch apps on an iPhone.Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, >>>>>> I had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading >>>>>> to Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start >>>>>> menu, now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a
different method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands
me her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-
party utility?
Unless you're brain is full.
I will try to remember it, but it is clunky AF.
You having a learning disability doesn't make something "clunky".
iOS's "swipe to switch" is easy to use and easy to learn.
On 10/21/2025 3:13 PM, Alan wrote:
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big aAnd now you pivot away.
thing, when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people
from CSMA acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable,
because PCs might have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe
Apple is always really great, even though they're selling you
yesterday's specs for tomorrow's price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its
customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac
users don't CARE what the components inside are.
They don't care about flushing money down the toilet, is the point.
They'll eat up everything Apple shoves down their throats. It's amazing.
On 10/21/2025 3:14 PM, Alan wrote:
Well now you know how to switch apps on an iPhone.Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by aLike the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8,
yeah, I had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after
upgrading to Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took
away the Start menu, now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS. >>>>>>
different method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom
hands me her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a >>>>> third- party utility?
Unless you're brain is full.
I will try to remember it, but it is clunky AF.
You having a learning disability doesn't make something "clunky".
iOS's "swipe to switch" is easy to use and easy to learn.
It's weak, lame, typical Apple brain-damaged thinking.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its
customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they
find that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac
users don't CARE what the components inside are.
They don't care about flushing money down the toilet, is the point.
They'll eat up everything Apple shoves down their throats. It's amazing.
Again: you assume that people who disagree with your opinion MUST be
less intelligent than you.
You're wrong.
On Oct 21, 2025 at 11:52:12 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote <mlq32sFufmoU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 21/10/2025 01:21, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 5:14:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<CfAJQ.831372$2R62.757745@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:39 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 4:24:38 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<WwzJQ.481679$Fe_d.23319@fx09.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I >>>>>>>>>> had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to >>>>>>>>>> Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu,
now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different
method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party >>>>>>>> utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have. >>>>>>>
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or >>>>>>> whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes
have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
Instead of reinventing the wheel, this works well:
https://youtu.be/_j4-NTg3QsE
You can also have it so you can double-tab (or triple tap) the back of the
phone to turn it on/off. You can also use the "action" button on phones with
that button.
I didn't catch exactly how it would create a button like I have on my
phone, but it was an interesting video.
It is not quite like Android. It does not sit at the bottom below everything
else (I think that is how Android does it). It is a floating button you can >>> move anywhere -- worded that way maybe it sounds like a benefit, BUT it is on
top of the UI. In my quick testing this is not that big of a deal -- I can put
it on a bottom corner and it has minimal impact on clicking on the Dock icon.
Minimal is not NONE though... and it is not standard. Does not help if you >>> just want to use someone else's phone for a bit.
But it does offer a lot of options with one or few touches. Might not be >>> exactly what you are used to, or even what you want, but might be close
enough... and offer some benefits even.
I've been using it for a LONG time now. It *IS* very useful ..... but
sometimes gets right in the way of something else I'm trying to do!
Where do you tend to keep it?
Thanks for the video!
Sure... though of course it is not mine.
You really SHOULD be helping on the ASC forums with your depth of
knowledge!!!
I look from time to time but see few questions where I have unique answers. If
you ever see one let me know.
If you have been reading my recent posts you can see my focus -- usability. Between Services and PDF Services and Quick Look at Lookup and tabs in many apps and (generally) better drag and drop and more, I really do think macOS is
second to none.
BUT, I am behind on Linux and Windows, AND they have been ahead at times. Window Snap and other window management options were behind on macOS. Even "Spaces" (virtual desktops) was something Apple did not do for a long time. I remember having discussions with folks where they denied you had to do some small amount of setup -- as if windows just know where to go -- but it is true
for many they offer benefits. Glad macOS now has them as well as Stage Manager
(which I did not get at all until I started using it).
On 21/10/2025 20:57, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 21, 2025 at 11:52:12 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlq32sFufmoU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 21/10/2025 01:21, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 5:14:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<CfAJQ.831372$2R62.757745@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:39 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 4:24:38 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<WwzJQ.481679$Fe_d.23319@fx09.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to >>>>>>>>>>> Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu,
now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different
method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party >>>>>>>>> utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have. >>>>>>>>
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or >>>>>>>> whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes
have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
Instead of reinventing the wheel, this works well:
https://youtu.be/_j4-NTg3QsE
You can also have it so you can double-tab (or triple tap) the back of the
phone to turn it on/off. You can also use the "action" button on phones with
that button.
I didn't catch exactly how it would create a button like I have on my >>>>> phone, but it was an interesting video.
It is not quite like Android. It does not sit at the bottom below everything
else (I think that is how Android does it). It is a floating button you can
move anywhere -- worded that way maybe it sounds like a benefit, BUT it is on
top of the UI. In my quick testing this is not that big of a deal -- I can put
it on a bottom corner and it has minimal impact on clicking on the Dock icon.
Minimal is not NONE though... and it is not standard. Does not help if you >>>> just want to use someone else's phone for a bit.
But it does offer a lot of options with one or few touches. Might not be >>>> exactly what you are used to, or even what you want, but might be close >>>> enough... and offer some benefits even.
I've been using it for a LONG time now. It *IS* very useful ..... but
sometimes gets right in the way of something else I'm trying to do!
Where do you tend to keep it?
Bottom right!
Thanks for the video!
Sure... though of course it is not mine.
Indeed!
You really SHOULD be helping on the ASC forums with your depth of
knowledge!!!
I look from time to time but see few questions where I have unique answers. If
you ever see one let me know.
Me? I'm banned!!!
If you have been reading my recent posts you can see my focus -- usability. >> Between Services and PDF Services and Quick Look at Lookup and tabs in many >> apps and (generally) better drag and drop and more, I really do think macOS is
second to none.
I'm still sold on macOS - although I cannot get the latest on this old
iMac now.
BUT, I am behind on Linux and Windows, AND they have been ahead at times.
Window Snap and other window management options were behind on macOS. Even >> "Spaces" (virtual desktops) was something Apple did not do for a long time. I
remember having discussions with folks where they denied you had to do some >> small amount of setup -- as if windows just know where to go -- but it is true
for many they offer benefits. Glad macOS now has them as well as Stage Manager
(which I did not get at all until I started using it).
I played about with Stage Manager when first it was launched but found
it didn't help much with Usenet posting! ;-)
On Oct 21, 2025 at 3:03:36 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote <mlqe9oF1ps9U1@mid.individual.net>:
On 21/10/2025 20:57, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 21, 2025 at 11:52:12 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlq32sFufmoU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 21/10/2025 01:21, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 5:14:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<CfAJQ.831372$2R62.757745@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:39 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 4:24:38 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<WwzJQ.481679$Fe_d.23319@fx09.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>> <dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>>>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu,
now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different
method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party
utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have. >>>>>>>>>
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or >>>>>>>>> whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes
have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
Instead of reinventing the wheel, this works well:
https://youtu.be/_j4-NTg3QsE
You can also have it so you can double-tab (or triple tap) the back of the
phone to turn it on/off. You can also use the "action" button on phones with
that button.
I didn't catch exactly how it would create a button like I have on my >>>>>> phone, but it was an interesting video.
It is not quite like Android. It does not sit at the bottom below everything
else (I think that is how Android does it). It is a floating button you can
move anywhere -- worded that way maybe it sounds like a benefit, BUT it is on
top of the UI. In my quick testing this is not that big of a deal -- I can put
it on a bottom corner and it has minimal impact on clicking on the Dock icon.
Minimal is not NONE though... and it is not standard. Does not help if you
just want to use someone else's phone for a bit.
But it does offer a lot of options with one or few touches. Might not be >>>>> exactly what you are used to, or even what you want, but might be close >>>>> enough... and offer some benefits even.
I've been using it for a LONG time now. It *IS* very useful ..... but
sometimes gets right in the way of something else I'm trying to do!
Where do you tend to keep it?
Bottom right!
Makes sense.
Thanks for the video!
Sure... though of course it is not mine.
Indeed!
You really SHOULD be helping on the ASC forums with your depth of
knowledge!!!
I look from time to time but see few questions where I have unique answers. If
you ever see one let me know.
Me? I'm banned!!!
Fair.
If you have been reading my recent posts you can see my focus -- usability. >>> Between Services and PDF Services and Quick Look at Lookup and tabs in many >>> apps and (generally) better drag and drop and more, I really do think macOS is
second to none.
I'm still sold on macOS - although I cannot get the latest on this old
iMac now.
It is only getting better.
BUT, I am behind on Linux and Windows, AND they have been ahead at times. >>> Window Snap and other window management options were behind on macOS. Even >>> "Spaces" (virtual desktops) was something Apple did not do for a long time. I
remember having discussions with folks where they denied you had to do some >>> small amount of setup -- as if windows just know where to go -- but it is true
for many they offer benefits. Glad macOS now has them as well as Stage Manager
(which I did not get at all until I started using it).
I played about with Stage Manager when first it was launched but found
it didn't help much with Usenet posting! ;-)
I saw it as a silly gimmick. Could not imagine using it. This was doubly true on my laptop with a smaller screen. Just a bit screen real estate waster. Then
I used it... and I love it. Super easy to swap between groups of windows -- in
my case usually two. Helps keep me organized. I use that in addition to Spaces
and I also use tabs a lot in Pages and Numbers. I do a LOT of multitasking. LOL!
On 10/21/2025 4:20 PM, Alan wrote:
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its
customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they
find that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac
users don't CARE what the components inside are.
They don't care about flushing money down the toilet, is the point.
They'll eat up everything Apple shoves down their throats. It's
amazing.
Again: you assume that people who disagree with your opinion MUST be
less intelligent than you.
You're wrong.
I actually *don't* think they're less intelligent, they're just brain- damaged, wanting inferior products for more cost. I'm not more intelligent, just more able to see value.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac
users don't CARE what the components inside are.
They don't care about flushing money down the toilet, is the point.
They'll eat up everything Apple shoves down their throats. It's
amazing.
Again: you assume that people who disagree with your opinion MUST be
less intelligent than you.
You're wrong.
I actually *don't* think they're less intelligent, they're just brain-
damaged, wanting inferior products for more cost. I'm not more
intelligent, just more able to see value.
You aren't even bright enough to realize you just agreed with what I
just said...
On 21/10/2025 23:39, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 21, 2025 at 3:03:36 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlqe9oF1ps9U1@mid.individual.net>:
On 21/10/2025 20:57, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 21, 2025 at 11:52:12 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlq32sFufmoU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 21/10/2025 01:21, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 5:14:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<CfAJQ.831372$2R62.757745@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:39 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 4:24:38 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<WwzJQ.481679$Fe_d.23319@fx09.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>>> <dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu,
now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different
method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party
utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have. >>>>>>>>>>
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or
whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes
have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
Instead of reinventing the wheel, this works well:
https://youtu.be/_j4-NTg3QsE
You can also have it so you can double-tab (or triple tap) the back of the
phone to turn it on/off. You can also use the "action" button on phones with
that button.
I didn't catch exactly how it would create a button like I have on my >>>>>>> phone, but it was an interesting video.
It is not quite like Android. It does not sit at the bottom below everything
else (I think that is how Android does it). It is a floating button you can
move anywhere -- worded that way maybe it sounds like a benefit, BUT it is on
top of the UI. In my quick testing this is not that big of a deal -- I can put
it on a bottom corner and it has minimal impact on clicking on the Dock icon.
Minimal is not NONE though... and it is not standard. Does not help if you
just want to use someone else's phone for a bit.
But it does offer a lot of options with one or few touches. Might not be >>>>>> exactly what you are used to, or even what you want, but might be close >>>>>> enough... and offer some benefits even.
I've been using it for a LONG time now. It *IS* very useful ..... but >>>>> sometimes gets right in the way of something else I'm trying to do!
Where do you tend to keep it?
Bottom right!
Makes sense.
Thanks for the video!
Sure... though of course it is not mine.
Indeed!
You really SHOULD be helping on the ASC forums with your depth of
knowledge!!!
I look from time to time but see few questions where I have unique answers. If
you ever see one let me know.
Me? I'm banned!!!
Fair.
If you have been reading my recent posts you can see my focus -- usability.
Between Services and PDF Services and Quick Look at Lookup and tabs in many
apps and (generally) better drag and drop and more, I really do think macOS is
second to none.
I'm still sold on macOS - although I cannot get the latest on this old
iMac now.
It is only getting better.
BUT, I am behind on Linux and Windows, AND they have been ahead at times. >>>> Window Snap and other window management options were behind on macOS. Even >>>> "Spaces" (virtual desktops) was something Apple did not do for a long time. I
remember having discussions with folks where they denied you had to do some
small amount of setup -- as if windows just know where to go -- but it is true
for many they offer benefits. Glad macOS now has them as well as Stage Manager
(which I did not get at all until I started using it).
I played about with Stage Manager when first it was launched but found
it didn't help much with Usenet posting! ;-)
I saw it as a silly gimmick. Could not imagine using it. This was doubly true
on my laptop with a smaller screen. Just a bit screen real estate waster. Then
I used it... and I love it. Super easy to swap between groups of windows -- in
my case usually two. Helps keep me organized. I use that in addition to Spaces
and I also use tabs a lot in Pages and Numbers. I do a LOT of multitasking. >> LOL!
LOL!
My elderly sister is having trouble using Safari on her iPad.
She thinks something has changed with iOS Updates.
Are you aware of a simple video to explain using Safari?
If so, please advise.
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a >>>>>>>>> control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it, >>>>>>>> without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great
because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian*
phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market >>>>> despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE
like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're
simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a thing,
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from CSMA
acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always really
great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for tomorrow's
price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users don't CARE what the components inside are.
And now you pivot away.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its customers. >>
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
Having started with computer systems before the personal computers I have reached
the age where I still understand the tech specs however I am more interested in the
total package and how well it runs the software I need to run rather than playing
with BIOS settings, clock speeds, bus speeds and so forth.
I'm not a gamer looking to squeeze out the last cycle from a system.
So I can understand, at this point in my life, the Apple mentality.
That being said, as I have posted before I find the way Apple does things
on my iPhone somewhat obtuse.
Here is an example. And understand I have never done this before so a total noob.
I have a document that my attorney needs as a PDF and which I have only paper copy of.
I no longer have a scanner/MFP as I quickly learned it was a money pit replacing cartridges
and honestly rarely used it.
So I recalled reading that the iPhone can act as a scanner printer.
So I Google it and go through ~4 hits before I find one where the prompts match what
my version of IOS 26 matches.
The entire thing is convoluted.
Screens with icons, selections that don't make sense to me.
so I hunt around and finally am able to scan a 2 page document however I can't
find it
on my iPhone easily.
And since I double scanned the second page I would like to delete
the duplicate scans. I select and then select delete from the popup. It's still there.
So I now try printing directly from iPhone.
Oops I don't have an Air capabale printer although it's wireless and on my network.
Hmmm...
Back to Google.
So HP wants to sell me a program for ~ $10 / week to make this work.
No thanks.
I give up and decide to try this on my Samsung, not activated but on my network phone.
Another quick Google and I find using Google Drive to scan the documents. Easy peasy.
So now how to print.
Add my HP printer after searching and finding it.
To print from the Android, open the document and select Print.
Done......
Just a simple real life example I encountered for the first time today.
On 2025-10-21, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a >>>>>>>>>> control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it, >>>>>>>>> without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>>>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great
because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian*
phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide >>>>>> whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market >>>>>> despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE
like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're
simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a thing,
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from CSMA
acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always really
great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for tomorrow's
price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its customers. >>
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
Having started with computer systems before the personal computers I have reached
the age where I still understand the tech specs however I am more interested in the
total package and how well it runs the software I need to run rather than playing
with BIOS settings, clock speeds, bus speeds and so forth.
I'm not a gamer looking to squeeze out the last cycle from a system.
So I can understand, at this point in my life, the Apple mentality.
That being said, as I have posted before I find the way Apple does things
on my iPhone somewhat obtuse.
Here is an example. And understand I have never done this before so a total noob.I'll need details, but I don't think you're giving the whole story.
I have a document that my attorney needs as a PDF and which I have only paper copy of.
I no longer have a scanner/MFP as I quickly learned it was a money pit replacing cartridges
and honestly rarely used it.
So I recalled reading that the iPhone can act as a scanner printer.
So I Google it and go through ~4 hits before I find one where the prompts match what
my version of IOS 26 matches.
The entire thing is convoluted.
Screens with icons, selections that don't make sense to me.
so I hunt around and finally am able to scan a 2 page document however I can't find it
on my iPhone easily. And since I double scanned the second page I would like to delete
the duplicate scans. I select and then select delete from the popup. It's still there.
So I now try printing directly from iPhone.
Oops I don't have an Air capabale printer although it's wireless and on my network.
Hmmm...
Back to Google.
So HP wants to sell me a program for ~ $10 / week to make this work.
No thanks.
I give up and decide to try this on my Samsung, not activated but on my network phone.
Another quick Google and I find using Google Drive to scan the documents. Easy peasy.
So now how to print.
Add my HP printer after searching and finding it.
To print from the Android, open the document and select Print.
Done......
Just a simple real life example I encountered for the first time today.
And now you pivot away.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its customers. >>>
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical".
Having started with computer systems before the personal computers I have
reached
the age where I still understand the tech specs however I am more interested >> in the
total package and how well it runs the software I need to run rather than
playing
with BIOS settings, clock speeds, bus speeds and so forth.
I'm not a gamer looking to squeeze out the last cycle from a system.
I started in the same way.
A personal computer is a tool and what matters are not the individual components, but the whole.
So I can understand, at this point in my life, the Apple mentality.
That being said, as I have posted before I find the way Apple does things
on my iPhone somewhat obtuse.
Which is fine.
Here is an example. And understand I have never done this before so a total >> noob.
I have a document that my attorney needs as a PDF and which I have only paper
copy of.
I no longer have a scanner/MFP as I quickly learned it was a money pit
replacing cartridges
and honestly rarely used it.
So I recalled reading that the iPhone can act as a scanner printer.
So I Google it and go through ~4 hits before I find one where the prompts
match what
my version of IOS 26 matches.
The entire thing is convoluted.
Screens with icons, selections that don't make sense to me.
so I hunt around and finally am able to scan a 2 page document however I
can't find it
on my iPhone easily. And since I double scanned the second page I would like >> to delete
the duplicate scans. I select and then select delete from the popup. It's
still there.
So I now try printing directly from iPhone.
Oops I don't have an Air capabale printer although it's wireless and on my >> network.
Hmmm...
Back to Google.
So HP wants to sell me a program for ~ $10 / week to make this work.
No thanks.
I give up and decide to try this on my Samsung, not activated but on my
network phone.
Another quick Google and I find using Google Drive to scan the documents.
Easy peasy.
So now how to print.
Add my HP printer after searching and finding it.
To print from the Android, open the document and select Print.
Done......
Just a simple real life example I encountered for the first time today.
I'll need details, but I don't think you're giving the whole story.
I scanned a single page document using the included "Notes" app, and
emailed it to myself... ...as a PDF.
It took all of 30 seconds.
First hit on DuckDuckGo:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/108963>
'iPhone or iPad
You can use the Notes app to scan documents and add signatures on your
iPhone or iPad.
Scan a document in Notes
1. Open Notes and select a note or create a new one.
2. Tap the Attachment button, then tap Scan DocumentsScan Documents .
3. Place your document in view of the camera.
4. If your device is in Auto mode, your document will automatically
scan. If you need to manually capture a scan, tap the Shutter button or
press one of the Volume buttons. Then drag the corners to adjust the
scan to fit the page, then tap Keep Scan.
5. Tap Save or add additional scans to the document.
Then you use the standard Share button (small square with an arrow
pointing up out of it; everywhere on iOS), and choose to share it via Mail.
Done.
On Oct 21, 2025 at 9:35:52 PM MST, "Alan" wrote <10d9mv8$cogp$1@dont-email.me>:
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users >>>> don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical".
And even those who are -- programmers and the like -- often are not advanced users.
On 10/22/2025 1:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 21, 2025 at 9:35:52 PM MST, "Alan" wrote
<10d9mv8$cogp$1@dont-email.me>:
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users >>>>> don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical".
And even those who are -- programmers and the like -- often are not advanced >> users.
I was into programming long before I was into assembling hardware, and I thought
Linux was really exotic and difficult in the past, it's interesting how now I have a more comprehensive understand of computers, inside and out, having gotten
into the hardware assembly and using Linux.
On Oct 21, 2025 at 4:08:57 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote <mlqi49F2cskU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 21/10/2025 23:39, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 21, 2025 at 3:03:36 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlqe9oF1ps9U1@mid.individual.net>:
On 21/10/2025 20:57, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 21, 2025 at 11:52:12 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlq32sFufmoU1@mid.individual.net>:
On 21/10/2025 01:21, Brock McNuggets wrote:Where do you tend to keep it?
On Oct 20, 2025 at 5:14:25 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<CfAJQ.831372$2R62.757745@fx13.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:39 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 4:24:38 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>> <WwzJQ.481679$Fe_d.23319@fx09.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 7:08 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 2:03:05 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>>>> <dsxJQ.650769$k_17.492734@fx10.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start menu,
now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a different
method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands me
her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-party
utility?
Settings > Accessability > Touch > Assistive Touch.
From there you can set up what "buttons" you want it to have. >>>>>>>>>>>
This is for people who find gestures difficult or hard to remember or
whatever. Works very well, but you do have a floating dot that you sometimes
have to move or whatever.
You can also set up custom gestures if you want.
Can you show me what that looks like, in use?
Instead of reinventing the wheel, this works well:
https://youtu.be/_j4-NTg3QsE
You can also have it so you can double-tab (or triple tap) the back of the
phone to turn it on/off. You can also use the "action" button on phones with
that button.
I didn't catch exactly how it would create a button like I have on my >>>>>>>> phone, but it was an interesting video.
It is not quite like Android. It does not sit at the bottom below everything
else (I think that is how Android does it). It is a floating button you can
move anywhere -- worded that way maybe it sounds like a benefit, BUT it is on
top of the UI. In my quick testing this is not that big of a deal -- I can put
it on a bottom corner and it has minimal impact on clicking on the Dock icon.
Minimal is not NONE though... and it is not standard. Does not help if you
just want to use someone else's phone for a bit.
But it does offer a lot of options with one or few touches. Might not be
exactly what you are used to, or even what you want, but might be close >>>>>>> enough... and offer some benefits even.
I've been using it for a LONG time now. It *IS* very useful ..... but >>>>>> sometimes gets right in the way of something else I'm trying to do! >>>>>
Bottom right!
Makes sense.
Thanks for the video!
Sure... though of course it is not mine.
Indeed!
You really SHOULD be helping on the ASC forums with your depth of
knowledge!!!
I look from time to time but see few questions where I have unique answers. If
you ever see one let me know.
Me? I'm banned!!!
Fair.
If you have been reading my recent posts you can see my focus -- usability.
Between Services and PDF Services and Quick Look at Lookup and tabs in many
apps and (generally) better drag and drop and more, I really do think macOS is
second to none.
I'm still sold on macOS - although I cannot get the latest on this old >>>> iMac now.
It is only getting better.
BUT, I am behind on Linux and Windows, AND they have been ahead at times. >>>>> Window Snap and other window management options were behind on macOS. Even
"Spaces" (virtual desktops) was something Apple did not do for a long time. I
remember having discussions with folks where they denied you had to do some
small amount of setup -- as if windows just know where to go -- but it is true
for many they offer benefits. Glad macOS now has them as well as Stage Manager
(which I did not get at all until I started using it).
I played about with Stage Manager when first it was launched but found >>>> it didn't help much with Usenet posting! ;-)
I saw it as a silly gimmick. Could not imagine using it. This was doubly true
on my laptop with a smaller screen. Just a bit screen real estate waster. Then
I used it... and I love it. Super easy to swap between groups of windows -- in
my case usually two. Helps keep me organized. I use that in addition to Spaces
and I also use tabs a lot in Pages and Numbers. I do a LOT of multitasking. >>> LOL!
LOL!
My elderly sister is having trouble using Safari on her iPad.
She thinks something has changed with iOS Updates.
Are you aware of a simple video to explain using Safari?
If so, please advise.
Not sure what that would even look like -- using Safari to do what? Do you know what the issue is? I would first look to Gary / MacMost... he is amazing.
<div id="editor" contenteditable="false">>> LOL!
My elderly sister is having trouble using Safari on her iPad.
She thinks something has changed with iOS Updates.
Are you aware of a simple video to explain using Safari?
If so, please advise.
Not sure what that would even look like -- using Safari to do what? Do you >> know what the issue is? I would first look to Gary / MacMost... he is amazing.
At the moment, I'm unsure! When she gets back from seeing her doctor
today I see if she is up to talking about her 'problem'.
Good thinking re-Gary. He's the man!!!
I found this; quite helpful! https://macmost.com/understanding-safari-browser-profiles.html
On 10/22/2025 1:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 21, 2025 at 9:35:52 PM MST, "Alan" wrote
<10d9mv8$cogp$1@dont-email.me>:
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users >>>>> don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical".
And even those who are -- programmers and the like -- often are not advanced >> users.
I was into programming long before I was into assembling hardware, and I thought Linux was really exotic and difficult in the past, it's
interesting how now I have a more comprehensive understand of computers, inside and out, having gotten into the hardware assembly and using Linux.
On Oct 22, 2025 at 12:53:11 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote <mlrgr7F77hsU1@mid.individual.net>:
<div id="editor" contenteditable="false">>> LOL!
My elderly sister is having trouble using Safari on her iPad.
She thinks something has changed with iOS Updates.
Are you aware of a simple video to explain using Safari?
If so, please advise.
Not sure what that would even look like -- using Safari to do what? Do you >>> know what the issue is? I would first look to Gary / MacMost... he is amazing.
At the moment, I'm unsure! When she gets back from seeing her doctor
today I see if she is up to talking about her 'problem'.
Fair enough.
Good thinking re-Gary. He's the man!!!
Even as a knowledgable user I have learned from him. Also talked to him a few times and offered other ways to do things he left out of videos. He is a good man.
I found this; quite helpful!
https://macmost.com/understanding-safari-browser-profiles.html
It is amazing how many things Safari (and other browsers) do these days.
On 10/21/2025 7:37 PM, Alan wrote:
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac >>>>>> users don't CARE what the components inside are.
They don't care about flushing money down the toilet, is the point. >>>>> They'll eat up everything Apple shoves down their throats. It's
amazing.
Again: you assume that people who disagree with your opinion MUST be
less intelligent than you.
You're wrong.
I actually *don't* think they're less intelligent, they're just
brain- damaged, wanting inferior products for more cost. I'm not
more intelligent, just more able to see value.
You aren't even bright enough to realize you just agreed with what I
just said...
Nope, you think I'm making it about intelligence, it's not that, it's perception of bare facts, Maccies think Apple == better, but theYou think making a claim that "they're just brain-damaged" makes you
objective point of view thinks it equals more expensive. Could it be
worth it, to get the macOS experience? I guess, but it's hard to fathom why, when it has such lackluster development.
On 10/22/2025 1:00 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 21, 2025 at 9:35:52 PM MST, "Alan" wrote
<10d9mv8$cogp$1@dont-email.me>:
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac
users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical".
And even those who are -- programmers and the like -- often are not
advanced
users.
I was into programming long before I was into assembling hardware, and I thought Linux was really exotic and difficult in the past, it's
interesting how now I have a more comprehensive understand of computers...
On 22/10/2025 14:55, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 22, 2025 at 12:53:11 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<mlrgr7F77hsU1@mid.individual.net>:
<div id="editor" contenteditable="false">>> LOL!
My elderly sister is having trouble using Safari on her iPad.
She thinks something has changed with iOS Updates.
Are you aware of a simple video to explain using Safari?
If so, please advise.
Not sure what that would even look like -- using Safari to do what? Do you >>>> know what the issue is? I would first look to Gary / MacMost... he is amazing.
At the moment, I'm unsure! When she gets back from seeing her doctor
today I see if she is up to talking about her 'problem'.
Fair enough.
Good thinking re-Gary. He's the man!!!
Even as a knowledgable user I have learned from him. Also talked to him a few
times and offered other ways to do things he left out of videos. He is a good
man.
I found this; quite helpful!
https://macmost.com/understanding-safari-browser-profiles.html
It is amazing how many things Safari (and other browsers) do these days.
Indeed!
I’ve just been watching “Cold Comfort Farm” with Mrs B. - free on YouTube! It’s the book she’s just read for her Book Group meeting (this evening!). Quite fun!
You'll love the chickens if you watch! 🙂
On 10/20/2025 7:26 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Apple has a HUGE marketshare as well. Both have people who feel very
strongly
about them.
I know. It's puzzling.
Not to me. There are many people who prefer them.
I like iPhones because of the connection with macOS... do not know modern
Android enough to have much of an opinion about it.
My mom does not have a Mac but uses the iPhone. It's kind of interesting. She's always been on Windows laptops, one after another,
but she does love that iPhone.
On 2025-10-20 19:50, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 7:26 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Apple has a HUGE marketshare as well. Both have people who feel very >>>>> strongly
about them.
I know. It's puzzling.
Not to me. There are many people who prefer them.
I like iPhones because of the connection with macOS... do not know modern >>> Android enough to have much of an opinion about it.
My mom does not have a Mac but uses the iPhone. It's kind of
interesting. She's always been on Windows laptops, one after another,
but she does love that iPhone.
I am the same way. I have nothing against Android, but I do think that
iOS is more polished.
On 2025-10-20 14:03, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:Well now you know how to switch apps on an iPhone.
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah, I
had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading to
Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start
menu, now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a
different method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands
me her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-
party utility?
Unless you're brain is full.
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a >>>>>>>> control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it, >>>>>>> without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great
because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian*
phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE
like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're
simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a thing,
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from CSMA acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always really great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for tomorrow's price.
On 2025-10-21, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a >>>>>>>>>> control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale for it, >>>>>>>>> without realizing that my point stands. There should be a button to >>>>>>>>> access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great
because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian*
phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide >>>>>> whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market >>>>>> despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE
like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're
simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a thing,
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from CSMA
acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always really
great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for tomorrow's
price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its customers. >>
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
On 2025-10-21 18:37, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-21, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>> <U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a >>>>>>>>>>> control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale >>>>>>>>>> for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a >>>>>>>>>> button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great >>>>>>>> because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* >>>>>>>> phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide >>>>>>> whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone market >>>>>>> despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE >>>>>>> like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're
simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a thing, >>>> when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from CSMA >>>> acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs might >>>> have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always really >>>> great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for tomorrow's >>>> price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its
customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical".
Having started with computer systems before the personal computers I
have reached
the age where I still understand the tech specs however I am more
interested in the
total package and how well it runs the software I need to run rather
than playing
with BIOS settings, clock speeds, bus speeds and so forth.
I'm not a gamer looking to squeeze out the last cycle from a system.
I started in the same way.
A personal computer is a tool and what matters are not the individual components, but the whole.
So I can understand, at this point in my life, the Apple mentality.
That being said, as I have posted before I find the way Apple does things
on my iPhone somewhat obtuse.
Which is fine.
I'll need details, but I don't think you're giving the whole story.
Here is an example. And understand I have never done this before so a
total noob.
I have a document that my attorney needs as a PDF and which I have
only paper copy of.
I no longer have a scanner/MFP as I quickly learned it was a money pit
replacing cartridges
and honestly rarely used it.
So I recalled reading that the iPhone can act as a scanner printer.
So I Google it and go through ~4 hits before I find one where the
prompts match what
my version of IOS 26 matches.
The entire thing is convoluted.
Screens with icons, selections that don't make sense to me.
so I hunt around and finally am able to scan a 2 page document however
I can't find it
on my iPhone easily. And since I double scanned the second page I
would like to delete
the duplicate scans. I select and then select delete from the popup.
It's still there.
So I now try printing directly from iPhone.
Oops I don't have an Air capabale printer although it's wireless and
on my network.
Hmmm...
Back to Google.
So HP wants to sell me a program for ~ $10 / week to make this work.
No thanks.
I give up and decide to try this on my Samsung, not activated but on
my network phone.
Another quick Google and I find using Google Drive to scan the documents.
Easy peasy.
So now how to print.
Add my HP printer after searching and finding it.
To print from the Android, open the document and select Print.
Done......
Just a simple real life example I encountered for the first time today.
I scanned a single page document using the included "Notes" app, and
emailed it to myself... ...as a PDF.
It took all of 30 seconds.
First hit on DuckDuckGo:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/108963>
'iPhone or iPad
You can use the Notes app to scan documents and add signatures on your iPhone or iPad.
Scan a document in Notes
1. Open Notes and select a note or create a new one.
2. Tap the Attachment button, then tap Scan DocumentsScan Documents .
3. Place your document in view of the camera.
4. If your device is in Auto mode, your document will automatically
scan. If you need to manually capture a scan, tap the Shutter button or press one of the Volume buttons. Then drag the corners to adjust the
scan to fit the page, then tap Keep Scan.
5. Tap Save or add additional scans to the document.
Then you use the standard Share button (small square with an arrow
pointing up out of it; everywhere on iOS), and choose to share it via Mail.
Done.
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app to
stay open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>Different products developed differently: film at eleven.
news:NcEIQ.857358$ctz9.380633@fx16.iad Sat, 18 Oct 2025 03:55:25 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 10/17/2025 11:48 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 17, 2025 at 7:05:02 PM MST, "vallor" wrote
<10cuske$1gtba$2@dont-email.me>:
you close all of an app's windows [in macOS], but the
app is still running -- and its menu bar is all the way
at the top?
They should at least have a per-user setting to make it
normal, instead of quirky like that.
Then why not ask Windows and Linux to have a setting to allow an app to
stay open even when you close the last window?
Apps can do that by putting a system-notification icon in the tray.
True. The system notification icon can also have a menu shortcut that allows opening new files, saving files, etc etc etc. It doesn't just need to be something to click to restore the app to the main display (or one of several displays - however you have your rig setup). It's not new tech either, it's been around since the win9x days. From what I found for Linux though, it wasn't a 'feature' for the most part until 2002. Alt-tab works on most DE's of linux that I've used just like it has on Windows for decades now. Let's you switch between active programs on the fly. I like the way it looked on KDE that was with 17.3 of Mint better than I do XCFE that's default with MX but, it still works regardless. KDE had eye candy. <G>
I still prefer my taskbar at the bottom of the screen with the notification icons to the bottom right. An old habit from Windows I suppose. So, I make sure my Linux boxes setup the screen layout the same way for me. It's just what I like.
MacOS doesn't call it a system tray, it's known as a "status menu". MacOS likes being different.
On 2025-10-22 00:35, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-21 18:37, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-21, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>>> <U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used for a >>>>>>>>>>>> control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale >>>>>>>>>>> for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a >>>>>>>>>>> button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great >>>>>>>>> because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* >>>>>>>>> phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide >>>>>>>> whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone >>>>>>>> market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE >>>>>>>> like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're >>>>>>>> simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a thing, >>>>> when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from CSMA >>>>> acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs
might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always really >>>>> great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for
tomorrow's
price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its
customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find >>>> that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac users >>>> don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical".
Having started with computer systems before the personal computers I
have reached
the age where I still understand the tech specs however I am more
interested in the
total package and how well it runs the software I need to run rather
than playing
with BIOS settings, clock speeds, bus speeds and so forth.
I'm not a gamer looking to squeeze out the last cycle from a system.
I started in the same way.
A personal computer is a tool and what matters are not the individual
components, but the whole.
So I can understand, at this point in my life, the Apple mentality.
That being said, as I have posted before I find the way Apple does
things
on my iPhone somewhat obtuse.
Which is fine.
I'll need details, but I don't think you're giving the whole story.
Here is an example. And understand I have never done this before so a
total noob.
I have a document that my attorney needs as a PDF and which I have
only paper copy of.
I no longer have a scanner/MFP as I quickly learned it was a money
pit replacing cartridges
and honestly rarely used it.
So I recalled reading that the iPhone can act as a scanner printer.
So I Google it and go through ~4 hits before I find one where the
prompts match what
my version of IOS 26 matches.
The entire thing is convoluted.
Screens with icons, selections that don't make sense to me.
so I hunt around and finally am able to scan a 2 page document
however I can't find it
on my iPhone easily. And since I double scanned the second page I
would like to delete
the duplicate scans. I select and then select delete from the popup.
It's still there.
So I now try printing directly from iPhone.
Oops I don't have an Air capabale printer although it's wireless and
on my network.
Hmmm...
Back to Google.
So HP wants to sell me a program for ~ $10 / week to make this work.
No thanks.
I give up and decide to try this on my Samsung, not activated but on
my network phone.
Another quick Google and I find using Google Drive to scan the
documents.
Easy peasy.
So now how to print.
Add my HP printer after searching and finding it.
To print from the Android, open the document and select Print.
Done......
Just a simple real life example I encountered for the first time today.
I scanned a single page document using the included "Notes" app, and
emailed it to myself... ...as a PDF.
It took all of 30 seconds.
First hit on DuckDuckGo:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/108963>
'iPhone or iPad
You can use the Notes app to scan documents and add signatures on your
iPhone or iPad.
Scan a document in Notes
1. Open Notes and select a note or create a new one.
2. Tap the Attachment button, then tap Scan DocumentsScan Documents .
3. Place your document in view of the camera.
4. If your device is in Auto mode, your document will automatically
scan. If you need to manually capture a scan, tap the Shutter button
or press one of the Volume buttons. Then drag the corners to adjust
the scan to fit the page, then tap Keep Scan.
5. Tap Save or add additional scans to the document.
Then you use the standard Share button (small square with an arrow
pointing up out of it; everywhere on iOS), and choose to share it via
Mail.
Done.
I'm glad to learn that you can do such a thing. Thanks. I would still
prefer to use an actual scanner though.
On 2025-10-21 11:49, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 14:03, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:51 PM, Alan wrote:Well now you know how to switch apps on an iPhone.
Like the "groundbreaking" Windows 8 that was so bad that people
started switching to macOS?
People who were too clueless to get Classic Shell or Start8, yeah,
I had Classic Shell installed in a New York minute after upgrading
to Win8. What kind of dumbass thinks "OMG they took away the Start
menu, now what do I do?!?!" Just use Google FFS.
Yet you imagine that people would be totally bamboozled by a
different method for app switching in iOS.
Well, tell me how you would get the button. Every time my mom hands
me her phone, I'm like "WTF", there's no button. Is there a third-
party utility?
Unless you're brain is full.
Switching apps on an iPhone is as simple as swiping up from the bottom.
I thought that it was obvious.
On 2025-10-22 14:27, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-10-22 00:35, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-21 18:37, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-21, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>>>> <U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a
control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale >>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a >>>>>>>>>>>> button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great >>>>>>>>>> because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* >>>>>>>>>> phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will decide >>>>>>>>> whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone >>>>>>>>> market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE >>>>>>>>> like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're >>>>>>>>> simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a
thing,
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from >>>>>> CSMA
acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs >>>>>> might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always
really
great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for
tomorrow's
price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its
customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they find >>>>> that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac
users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical".
Having started with computer systems before the personal computers I
have reached
the age where I still understand the tech specs however I am more
interested in the
total package and how well it runs the software I need to run rather
than playing
with BIOS settings, clock speeds, bus speeds and so forth.
I'm not a gamer looking to squeeze out the last cycle from a system.
I started in the same way.
A personal computer is a tool and what matters are not the individual
components, but the whole.
So I can understand, at this point in my life, the Apple mentality.
That being said, as I have posted before I find the way Apple does
things
on my iPhone somewhat obtuse.
Which is fine.
Here is an example. And understand I have never done this before so
a total noob.
I have a document that my attorney needs as a PDF and which I have
only paper copy of.
I no longer have a scanner/MFP as I quickly learned it was a money
pit replacing cartridges
and honestly rarely used it.
So I recalled reading that the iPhone can act as a scanner printer.
So I Google it and go through ~4 hits before I find one where the
prompts match what
my version of IOS 26 matches.
The entire thing is convoluted.
Screens with icons, selections that don't make sense to me.
so I hunt around and finally am able to scan a 2 page document
however I can't find it
on my iPhone easily. And since I double scanned the second page I
would like to delete
the duplicate scans. I select and then select delete from the popup.
It's still there.
So I now try printing directly from iPhone.
Oops I don't have an Air capabale printer although it's wireless and
on my network.
Hmmm...
Back to Google.
So HP wants to sell me a program for ~ $10 / week to make this work.
No thanks.
I give up and decide to try this on my Samsung, not activated but on
my network phone.
Another quick Google and I find using Google Drive to scan the
documents.
Easy peasy.
So now how to print.
Add my HP printer after searching and finding it.
To print from the Android, open the document and select Print.
Done......
Just a simple real life example I encountered for the first time today. >>> I'll need details, but I don't think you're giving the whole story.
I scanned a single page document using the included "Notes" app, and
emailed it to myself... ...as a PDF.
It took all of 30 seconds.
First hit on DuckDuckGo:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/108963>
'iPhone or iPad
You can use the Notes app to scan documents and add signatures on
your iPhone or iPad.
Scan a document in Notes
1. Open Notes and select a note or create a new one.
2. Tap the Attachment button, then tap Scan DocumentsScan Documents .
3. Place your document in view of the camera.
4. If your device is in Auto mode, your document will automatically
scan. If you need to manually capture a scan, tap the Shutter button
or press one of the Volume buttons. Then drag the corners to adjust
the scan to fit the page, then tap Keep Scan.
5. Tap Save or add additional scans to the document.
Then you use the standard Share button (small square with an arrow
pointing up out of it; everywhere on iOS), and choose to share it via
Mail.
Done.
I'm glad to learn that you can do such a thing. Thanks. I would still
prefer to use an actual scanner though.
You can do that too, but why should it matter to you?
On 2025-10-22 14:34, Gremlin wrote:
MacOS doesn't call it a system tray, it's known as a "status menu".Different products developed differently: film at eleven.
MacOS likes being different.
On 2025-10-22 17:50, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-22 14:27, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-10-22 00:35, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-21 18:37, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-21, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>>>>> <U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
You're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"?
It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is a
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's.
It's clunky. It sucks.
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a
control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the rationale >>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a >>>>>>>>>>>>> button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great >>>>>>>>>>> because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* >>>>>>>>>>> phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will >>>>>>>>>> decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone >>>>>>>>>> market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that PEOPLE >>>>>>>>>> like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're >>>>>>>>>> simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a >>>>>>> thing,
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people from >>>>>>> CSMA
acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because PCs >>>>>>> might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always >>>>>>> really
great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for
tomorrow's
price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its
customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they >>>>>> find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac >>>>>> users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical".
Having started with computer systems before the personal computers
I have reached
the age where I still understand the tech specs however I am more
interested in the
total package and how well it runs the software I need to run
rather than playing
with BIOS settings, clock speeds, bus speeds and so forth.
I'm not a gamer looking to squeeze out the last cycle from a system.
I started in the same way.
A personal computer is a tool and what matters are not the
individual components, but the whole.
So I can understand, at this point in my life, the Apple mentality.
That being said, as I have posted before I find the way Apple does
things
on my iPhone somewhat obtuse.
Which is fine.
I'll need details, but I don't think you're giving the whole story.
Here is an example. And understand I have never done this before so >>>>> a total noob.
I have a document that my attorney needs as a PDF and which I have
only paper copy of.
I no longer have a scanner/MFP as I quickly learned it was a money
pit replacing cartridges
and honestly rarely used it.
So I recalled reading that the iPhone can act as a scanner printer.
So I Google it and go through ~4 hits before I find one where the
prompts match what
my version of IOS 26 matches.
The entire thing is convoluted.
Screens with icons, selections that don't make sense to me.
so I hunt around and finally am able to scan a 2 page document
however I can't find it
on my iPhone easily. And since I double scanned the second page I
would like to delete
the duplicate scans. I select and then select delete from the
popup. It's still there.
So I now try printing directly from iPhone.
Oops I don't have an Air capabale printer although it's wireless
and on my network.
Hmmm...
Back to Google.
So HP wants to sell me a program for ~ $10 / week to make this work. >>>>> No thanks.
I give up and decide to try this on my Samsung, not activated but
on my network phone.
Another quick Google and I find using Google Drive to scan the
documents.
Easy peasy.
So now how to print.
Add my HP printer after searching and finding it.
To print from the Android, open the document and select Print.
Done......
Just a simple real life example I encountered for the first time
today.
I scanned a single page document using the included "Notes" app, and
emailed it to myself... ...as a PDF.
It took all of 30 seconds.
First hit on DuckDuckGo:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/108963>
'iPhone or iPad
You can use the Notes app to scan documents and add signatures on
your iPhone or iPad.
Scan a document in Notes
1. Open Notes and select a note or create a new one.
2. Tap the Attachment button, then tap Scan DocumentsScan Documents .
3. Place your document in view of the camera.
4. If your device is in Auto mode, your document will automatically
scan. If you need to manually capture a scan, tap the Shutter button
or press one of the Volume buttons. Then drag the corners to adjust
the scan to fit the page, then tap Keep Scan.
5. Tap Save or add additional scans to the document.
Then you use the standard Share button (small square with an arrow
pointing up out of it; everywhere on iOS), and choose to share it
via Mail.
Done.
I'm glad to learn that you can do such a thing. Thanks. I would still
prefer to use an actual scanner though.
You can do that too, but why should it matter to you?
I imagine that some details are omitted when you use a phone's camera to capture details from a document which is resting at an angle. I would
rather put it in flat inside a device which is itself resting flat on a
flat surface. I'm sure that such scans do a good job, but this is where
I will continue to believe that the old way is just better.
On 2025-10-22 17:13, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-10-22 17:50, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-22 14:27, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-10-22 00:35, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-21 18:37, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-21, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>>>>>> <U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
It's clunky. It sucks.It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is aYou're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being used >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a
control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great >>>>>>>>>>>> because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy *Asian* >>>>>>>>>>>> phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will >>>>>>>>>>> decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the smartphone >>>>>>>>>>> market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that >>>>>>>>>>> PEOPLE
like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're >>>>>>>>>>> simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level.
What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a >>>>>>>> thing,
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people
from CSMA
acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because >>>>>>>> PCs might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always >>>>>>>> really
great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for
tomorrow's
price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its >>>>>>> customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if they >>>>>>> find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most Mac >>>>>>> users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical". >>>>>
I started in the same way.
Having started with computer systems before the personal computers >>>>>> I have reached
the age where I still understand the tech specs however I am more >>>>>> interested in the
total package and how well it runs the software I need to run
rather than playing
with BIOS settings, clock speeds, bus speeds and so forth.
I'm not a gamer looking to squeeze out the last cycle from a system. >>>>>
A personal computer is a tool and what matters are not the
individual components, but the whole.
So I can understand, at this point in my life, the Apple mentality. >>>>>>
That being said, as I have posted before I find the way Apple does >>>>>> things
on my iPhone somewhat obtuse.
Which is fine.
I'll need details, but I don't think you're giving the whole story.
Here is an example. And understand I have never done this before
so a total noob.
I have a document that my attorney needs as a PDF and which I have >>>>>> only paper copy of.
I no longer have a scanner/MFP as I quickly learned it was a money >>>>>> pit replacing cartridges
and honestly rarely used it.
So I recalled reading that the iPhone can act as a scanner printer. >>>>>>
So I Google it and go through ~4 hits before I find one where the >>>>>> prompts match what
my version of IOS 26 matches.
The entire thing is convoluted.
Screens with icons, selections that don't make sense to me.
so I hunt around and finally am able to scan a 2 page document
however I can't find it
on my iPhone easily. And since I double scanned the second page I >>>>>> would like to delete
the duplicate scans. I select and then select delete from the
popup. It's still there.
So I now try printing directly from iPhone.
Oops I don't have an Air capabale printer although it's wireless
and on my network.
Hmmm...
Back to Google.
So HP wants to sell me a program for ~ $10 / week to make this work. >>>>>> No thanks.
I give up and decide to try this on my Samsung, not activated but >>>>>> on my network phone.
Another quick Google and I find using Google Drive to scan the
documents.
Easy peasy.
So now how to print.
Add my HP printer after searching and finding it.
To print from the Android, open the document and select Print.
Done......
Just a simple real life example I encountered for the first time
today.
I scanned a single page document using the included "Notes" app,
and emailed it to myself... ...as a PDF.
It took all of 30 seconds.
First hit on DuckDuckGo:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/108963>
'iPhone or iPad
You can use the Notes app to scan documents and add signatures on
your iPhone or iPad.
Scan a document in Notes
1. Open Notes and select a note or create a new one.
2. Tap the Attachment button, then tap Scan DocumentsScan Documents . >>>>> 3. Place your document in view of the camera.
4. If your device is in Auto mode, your document will automatically >>>>> scan. If you need to manually capture a scan, tap the Shutter
button or press one of the Volume buttons. Then drag the corners to >>>>> adjust the scan to fit the page, then tap Keep Scan.
5. Tap Save or add additional scans to the document.
Then you use the standard Share button (small square with an arrow
pointing up out of it; everywhere on iOS), and choose to share it
via Mail.
Done.
I'm glad to learn that you can do such a thing. Thanks. I would
still prefer to use an actual scanner though.
You can do that too, but why should it matter to you?
I imagine that some details are omitted when you use a phone's camera
to capture details from a document which is resting at an angle. I
would rather put it in flat inside a device which is itself resting
flat on a flat surface. I'm sure that such scans do a good job, but
this is where I will continue to believe that the old way is just better.
You "imagine" incorrectly. The camera and the software that uses it
produce a nice, square image.
And I don't need to buy or find a place to put a scanner.
On 2025-10-22 21:23, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-22 17:13, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-10-22 17:50, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-22 14:27, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-10-22 00:35, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-21 18:37, pothead wrote:
On 2025-10-21, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-10-21 10:39, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/21/2025 11:49 AM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 13:59, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 4:50 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-10-20 12:38, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 10/20/2025 3:07 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 20, 2025 at 10:12:20 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <U3uJQ.605573$80J6.111094@fx12.iad>:
On 10/20/2025 12:47 PM, Alan wrote:
It's clunky. It sucks.It's inferior. People who think fast want to act fast. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone is aYou're claiming that iOS doesn't have a way to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between apps?
Because that's the feature; not the particular way in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which it is
implemented.
OK, but Apple's method sucks.
Why? What makes it (specifically) "suck"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
chore to interact with.
That's not SPECIFIC.
Apple's switcher is no slower than Android's. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And now you pivot.
It is NOT "clunky".
It's EASY and saves valuable screen space from being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used for a
control
you don't need all the time.
You're just accepting what they give you, and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rationale for it,
without realizing that my point stands. There should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a button to
access the app-switching screen.
Where does Apple give this reasoning?
They don't, they just expect you to beLIEve their way is great >>>>>>>>>>>>> because they did it, you don't want one of those crappy >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Asian*
phones do you?
Nope.
They expect that they will design a product and PEOPLE will >>>>>>>>>>>> decide
whether or not it works well for them.
The fact that iPhones command a large share of the
smartphone market
despite their higher cost is a very strong indication that >>>>>>>>>>>> PEOPLE
like the way they work.
Clue time for when you're a grown up:
Stop assuming that people can only disagree with you if they're >>>>>>>>>>>> simpletons.
It's not an assumption, though, is the thing, Alan.
It absolutely is an assumption.
No rebuttal.
It's a direct observation of the facts.
What "facts" would those be?
No facts provided.
People stick with iPhone because they're not on the level. >>>>>>>>>>What do you claim that even means?
No answer.
And now you pivot away.
People like me take the other trail.That's how you prove to yourself that you're "special".
Right.
I've seen this attitude before smartphones were even that big a >>>>>>>>> thing,
when I first came around the advocacy groups in 2009, people >>>>>>>>> from CSMA
acting like Mac hardware was fancier, more desirable, because >>>>>>>>> PCs might
have a "cheapo AMD [CPU]", etc. People believe Apple is always >>>>>>>>> really
great, even though they're selling you yesterday's specs for >>>>>>>>> tomorrow's
price.
The fact remains that Apple commands tremendous loyalty from its >>>>>>>> customers.
They purchase Macs again and again, and that only happens if
they find
that Macs work well for them.
It is PC folks who think that machine specs matter most. Most >>>>>>>> Mac users
don't CARE what the components inside are.
PC folks tend to be more technical than Apple users.
Not all, but mostly.
A very small fraction of computer users are in any sense "technical". >>>>>>
I started in the same way.
Having started with computer systems before the personal
computers I have reached
the age where I still understand the tech specs however I am more >>>>>>> interested in the
total package and how well it runs the software I need to run
rather than playing
with BIOS settings, clock speeds, bus speeds and so forth.
I'm not a gamer looking to squeeze out the last cycle from a system. >>>>>>
A personal computer is a tool and what matters are not the
individual components, but the whole.
So I can understand, at this point in my life, the Apple mentality. >>>>>>>
That being said, as I have posted before I find the way Apple
does things
on my iPhone somewhat obtuse.
Which is fine.
I'll need details, but I don't think you're giving the whole story. >>>>>>
Here is an example. And understand I have never done this before >>>>>>> so a total noob.
I have a document that my attorney needs as a PDF and which I
have only paper copy of.
I no longer have a scanner/MFP as I quickly learned it was a
money pit replacing cartridges
and honestly rarely used it.
So I recalled reading that the iPhone can act as a scanner printer. >>>>>>>
So I Google it and go through ~4 hits before I find one where the >>>>>>> prompts match what
my version of IOS 26 matches.
The entire thing is convoluted.
Screens with icons, selections that don't make sense to me.
so I hunt around and finally am able to scan a 2 page document
however I can't find it
on my iPhone easily. And since I double scanned the second page I >>>>>>> would like to delete
the duplicate scans. I select and then select delete from the
popup. It's still there.
So I now try printing directly from iPhone.
Oops I don't have an Air capabale printer although it's wireless >>>>>>> and on my network.
Hmmm...
Back to Google.
So HP wants to sell me a program for ~ $10 / week to make this work. >>>>>>> No thanks.
I give up and decide to try this on my Samsung, not activated but >>>>>>> on my network phone.
Another quick Google and I find using Google Drive to scan the
documents.
Easy peasy.
So now how to print.
Add my HP printer after searching and finding it.
To print from the Android, open the document and select Print.
Done......
Just a simple real life example I encountered for the first time >>>>>>> today.
I scanned a single page document using the included "Notes" app,
and emailed it to myself... ...as a PDF.
It took all of 30 seconds.
First hit on DuckDuckGo:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/108963>
'iPhone or iPad
You can use the Notes app to scan documents and add signatures on >>>>>> your iPhone or iPad.
Scan a document in Notes
1. Open Notes and select a note or create a new one.
2. Tap the Attachment button, then tap Scan DocumentsScan Documents . >>>>>> 3. Place your document in view of the camera.
4. If your device is in Auto mode, your document will
automatically scan. If you need to manually capture a scan, tap
the Shutter button or press one of the Volume buttons. Then drag
the corners to adjust the scan to fit the page, then tap Keep Scan. >>>>>> 5. Tap Save or add additional scans to the document.
Then you use the standard Share button (small square with an arrow >>>>>> pointing up out of it; everywhere on iOS), and choose to share it >>>>>> via Mail.
Done.
I'm glad to learn that you can do such a thing. Thanks. I would
still prefer to use an actual scanner though.
You can do that too, but why should it matter to you?
I imagine that some details are omitted when you use a phone's camera
to capture details from a document which is resting at an angle. I
would rather put it in flat inside a device which is itself resting
flat on a flat surface. I'm sure that such scans do a good job, but
this is where I will continue to believe that the old way is just
better.
You "imagine" incorrectly. The camera and the software that uses it
produce a nice, square image.
And I don't need to buy or find a place to put a scanner.
It must be wonderful to be you.
I'm glad to learn that you can do such a thing. Thanks. I would still
prefer to use an actual scanner though.
You can do that too, but why should it matter to you?
I imagine that some details are omitted when you use a phone's camera to
capture details from a document which is resting at an angle. I would
rather put it in flat inside a device which is itself resting flat on a
flat surface. I'm sure that such scans do a good job, but this is where
I will continue to believe that the old way is just better.
You "imagine" incorrectly. The camera and the software that uses it
produce a nice, square image.
And I don't need to buy or find a place to put a scanner.
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