• The syllogism proves that the Principle of Explosion is nonsense

    From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Dec 14 09:58:30 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
    can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
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  • From Richard Damon@richard@damon-family.org to comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Dec 14 18:36:20 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/14/23 10:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
     can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    Nope, it establishes that some Dogs are not Dogs. That is a FULL
    "semantic" reasoning from the premises.

    This comes because the cats that are the "Some Cats" in (b), MUST BE, by
    (a) Dogs, so we can conclude that Those Dogs are Not Dogs.

    In other words, it proves the system is inconsistant.
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Dec 14 18:14:38 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/14/2023 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
     can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    The principle of explosion would says that (a) and (b)
    proves that the Moon is made from green cheese.

    Whereas the intersection of the sets specified by
    (a) and (b) is the empty set, thus derives no conclusion.
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From Richard Damon@richard@damon-family.org to comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Dec 14 19:27:08 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/14/23 7:14 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
      can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    The principle of explosion would says that (a) and (b)
    proves that the Moon is made from green cheese.

    Whereas the intersection of the sets specified by
    (a) and (b) is the empty set, thus derives no conclusion.


    But logic doesn't take the intersetion of the premises, but, in one
    sense, the Union.

    Or, are you saying that it implies that it is describing a world with no
    cats or dogs?

    But that would violate the clear meaning of the word "Some", which
    implies existance.
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  • From =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEcuIElzYWFr?=@agisaak@gm.invalid to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Dec 14 20:56:51 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 2023-12-14 17:14, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
      can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    The principle of explosion would says that (a) and (b)
    proves that the Moon is made from green cheese.

    No. It doesn't say that. Given a contradiction (I'll use A & ¬A), the principle of explosion says that for any statement X, "A & ¬A therefore
    X" is a *valid* argument.

    To *prove* a statement, the statement needs to appear as the conclusion
    to a *sound* argument (being valid is necessary but not sufficient), and
    the principle of explosion does *not* claim that your hypothetical
    argument is sound.

    André
    --
    To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
    service.

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Dec 14 22:20:53 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/14/2023 9:56 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2023-12-14 17:14, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
      can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    The principle of explosion would says that (a) and (b)
    proves that the Moon is made from green cheese.

    No. It doesn't say that. Given a contradiction (I'll use A & ¬A), the principle of explosion says that for any statement X, "A & ¬A therefore
    X" is a *valid* argument.


    *Which is itself conventionally defined incorrectly*
    The correct way that valid should be defined is that the
    conclusion is a necessary consequence of all of its premises.

    This eliminates the Principle of Explosion before it
    even gets started.

    To *prove* a statement, the statement needs to appear as the conclusion
    to a *sound* argument (being valid is necessary but not sufficient), and
    the principle of explosion does *not* claim that your hypothetical
    argument is sound.

    André

    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From Richard Damon@richard@damon-family.org to comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Fri Dec 15 07:49:29 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/14/23 11:20 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:56 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2023-12-14 17:14, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
      can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    The principle of explosion would says that (a) and (b)
    proves that the Moon is made from green cheese.

    No. It doesn't say that. Given a contradiction (I'll use A & ¬A), the
    principle of explosion says that for any statement X, "A & ¬A
    therefore X" is a *valid* argument.


    *Which is itself conventionally defined incorrectly*
    The correct way that valid should be defined is that the
    conclusion is a necessary consequence of all of its premises.

    Which it is, according to the rules of the logic system. You are just
    showing your lack of understanding.

    Any system which claims to be non-contradictory in logc form, that has a
    pair of statements that are contradictory, is just broken. The Principle
    of Explosion just makes the breakage total,


    This eliminates the Principle of Explosion before it
    even gets started.

    Nope, it proves that you don't understand what you are talking about.

    Truth is established by having a set (possibly infinite) of valid steps
    from the initial truthmakers of the system to the statement.

    A Proof is just a finite listing of one possible set of those links,
    thus anything that can be proven, must be true.

    Yes, if you limit the forms of links that can be used as steps, you can
    make some things not provable, but this MIGHT also reduce what is
    actually true in the system.


    To *prove* a statement, the statement needs to appear as the
    conclusion to a *sound* argument (being valid is necessary but not
    sufficient), and the principle of explosion does *not* claim that your
    hypothetical argument is sound.

    André



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  • From Nicki makethings@makethingsn@gmail.com to comp.ai.philosophy on Fri Dec 15 11:27:51 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 11:36:24 PM UTC, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 12/14/23 10:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
    can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)

    Nope, it establishes that some Dogs are not Dogs. That is a FULL
    "semantic" reasoning from the premises.

    This comes because the cats that are the "Some Cats" in (b), MUST BE, by
    (a) Dogs, so we can conclude that Those Dogs are Not Dogs.

    In other words, it proves the system is inconsistant.
    I'll vote for this response
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From Richard Damon@richard@damon-family.org to comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Fri Dec 15 20:05:32 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/14/23 11:20 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:56 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2023-12-14 17:14, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
      can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    The principle of explosion would says that (a) and (b)
    proves that the Moon is made from green cheese.

    No. It doesn't say that. Given a contradiction (I'll use A & ¬A), the
    principle of explosion says that for any statement X, "A & ¬A
    therefore X" is a *valid* argument.


    *Which is itself conventionally defined incorrectly*
    The correct way that valid should be defined is that the
    conclusion is a necessary consequence of all of its premises.

    And they are.

    Note, ANY system that starts with a contradiction in it is just "broken"
    and "necessary consequence" isn't really defined.

    Your problem is you don't understand the nature of the proof of the
    principle of explosion.

    It isn't removed by use of "meaning", as a system that allows the contradiction in the first place has already broken the definition of "meaning", but is removed by weaking the logic system to restrict how
    broad of a circle the break can infest.


    This eliminates the Principle of Explosion before it
    even gets started.

    Nope, the logic system was broken as soon as the truthmakers that
    allowed the derivation of the contradiction were added to the system.



    To *prove* a statement, the statement needs to appear as the
    conclusion to a *sound* argument (being valid is necessary but not
    sufficient), and the principle of explosion does *not* claim that your
    hypothetical argument is sound.

    André



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  • From immibis@news@immibis.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Sun Dec 17 09:17:40 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/15/23 05:20, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:56 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2023-12-14 17:14, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
      can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    The principle of explosion would says that (a) and (b)
    proves that the Moon is made from green cheese.

    No. It doesn't say that. Given a contradiction (I'll use A & ¬A), the
    principle of explosion says that for any statement X, "A & ¬A
    therefore X" is a *valid* argument.


    *Which is itself conventionally defined incorrectly*
    The correct way that valid should be defined is that the
    conclusion is a necessary consequence of all of its premises.

    This eliminates the Principle of Explosion before it
    even gets started.

    To *prove* a statement, the statement needs to appear as the
    conclusion to a *sound* argument (being valid is necessary but not
    sufficient), and the principle of explosion does *not* claim that your
    hypothetical argument is sound.

    André



    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of "all
    cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you imagine a world
    where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, but the moon isn't
    made from green cheese?
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Sun Dec 17 11:11:40 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/15/23 05:20, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:56 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2023-12-14 17:14, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
      can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    The principle of explosion would says that (a) and (b)
    proves that the Moon is made from green cheese.

    No. It doesn't say that. Given a contradiction (I'll use A & ¬A), the
    principle of explosion says that for any statement X, "A & ¬A
    therefore X" is a *valid* argument.


    *Which is itself conventionally defined incorrectly*
    The correct way that valid should be defined is that the
    conclusion is a necessary consequence of all of its premises.

    This eliminates the Principle of Explosion before it
    even gets started.

    To *prove* a statement, the statement needs to appear as the
    conclusion to a *sound* argument (being valid is necessary but not
    sufficient), and the principle of explosion does *not* claim that
    your hypothetical argument is sound.

    André



    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of "all
    cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, but the moon isn't
    made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies
    the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the
    measure.
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From Richard Damon@richard@damon-family.org to comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Sun Dec 17 12:29:41 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/17/23 12:11 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/15/23 05:20, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:56 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2023-12-14 17:14, olcott wrote:
    On 12/14/2023 9:58 AM, olcott wrote:
    "from a contradiction, any proposition (including its negation)
      can be inferred from it; this is known as deductive explosion." >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion

    Here is a contradiction as a syllogism that integrates the full
    semantics of the contradiction as defined sets.
    (a) All Cats are dogs
    (b) Some Cats are not dogs // AKA Not(All Cats are dogs)
    (c) therefore NULL (the empty set)


    The principle of explosion would says that (a) and (b)
    proves that the Moon is made from green cheese.

    No. It doesn't say that. Given a contradiction (I'll use A & ¬A),
    the principle of explosion says that for any statement X, "A & ¬A
    therefore X" is a *valid* argument.


    *Which is itself conventionally defined incorrectly*
    The correct way that valid should be defined is that the
    conclusion is a necessary consequence of all of its premises.

    This eliminates the Principle of Explosion before it
    even gets started.

    To *prove* a statement, the statement needs to appear as the
    conclusion to a *sound* argument (being valid is necessary but not
    sufficient), and the principle of explosion does *not* claim that
    your hypothetical argument is sound.

    André



    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of
    "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you imagine a
    world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, but the moon
    isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies
    the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the
    measure.


    Just shows you don't understand how semantic logic actually works.

    The Principle of Explosion says that, for a logic system with certain
    logical operations, that are normally included in logic, once you have a contradiction provable in the system, you can prove any statement from it.

    Yes, there are systems with weakened logic system that this does not
    apply to, but such system can not prove as many true statements themselves.

    It is also a fact, that ANY logic system, which claims to have logic
    that is non-contradictory, that can prove a contradiction, is no longer
    a sound logic system, as at least one of its truth makers must not be
    actually true.

    So, in one sense you are right, give the statements shown to be true in
    a system that (a) All Cats are Dogs, and (b) Some Cats are not Dog, yes,
    we can conclude that the FULL logic system shows the NULL set, as
    nothing in the set can be believed.

    If that is your goal, to assert that it is impossible to know if
    anything is actually true, and thus it is just as valid to claim any stateement we want as true, you have succeeded with your logic system.

    That seems to be just the opposite of what you have claimed to be trying
    to do, so you are just at total failure.

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From immibis@news@immibis.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 18 18:37:46 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/17/23 18:11, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:

    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of
    "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you imagine a
    world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, but the moon
    isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies
    the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the
    measure.


    Can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not
    dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 18 21:02:15 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/18/2023 11:37 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/17/23 18:11, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:

    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of
    "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you imagine
    a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, but the
    moon isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is
    syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies
    the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the
    measure.


    Can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not
    dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    That would be incoherent: The coherence theory of truth applies to the analytical body of knowledge.
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From immibis@news@immibis.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 19 14:34:37 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/19/23 04:02, olcott wrote:
    On 12/18/2023 11:37 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/17/23 18:11, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:

    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of
    "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you imagine
    a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, but the
    moon isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is
    syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies
    the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the
    measure.


    Can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not
    dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    That would be incoherent: The coherence theory of truth applies to the analytical body of knowledge.

    I've never heard of these two, and they seem to be fully immersed in philosophy, not computer science or mathematical logic.
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 19 09:22:43 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/19/2023 7:34 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 04:02, olcott wrote:
    On 12/18/2023 11:37 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/17/23 18:11, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:

    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of
    "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you
    imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, >>>>> but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is >>>> syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies >>>> the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the
    measure.


    Can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not
    dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    That would be incoherent: The coherence theory of truth applies to the
    analytical body of knowledge.

    I've never heard of these two, and they seem to be fully immersed in philosophy, not computer science or mathematical logic.

    Without Philosophy logic has no basis. The basis that logic does have is incoherent because they got the philosophy wrong.

    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From immibis@news@immibis.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 19 16:55:42 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/19/23 16:22, olcott wrote:
    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.

    What is a necessary consequence?

    A consequence is said to be necessary if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the antecedents to be true and the
    consequence nevertheless to be false...
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 19 11:05:16 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/19/2023 9:55 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 16:22, olcott wrote:
    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion
    nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.

    What is a necessary consequence?


    ◊ means possibly
    ◻ means necessarily
    ¬ means not
    ◊P means ¬◻¬P
    ◻P means ¬◊¬P

    A---B---A ◻ B
    t---t-----t
    t---f-----f
    f---?-----? When A is false then we know nothing about B




    A consequence is said to be necessary if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the antecedents to be true and the
    consequence nevertheless to be false...
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 19 11:26:49 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/19/2023 9:55 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 16:22, olcott wrote:
    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion
    nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.

    What is a necessary consequence?

    A consequence is said to be necessary if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the antecedents to be true and the
    consequence nevertheless to be false...

    *This may be a more exactly precise way to say what I mean*
    My correction to the notion of a valid argument means that the
    truth of the conclusion depends on the truth all of the premises.

    If any premise is false or irrelevant then the conclusion is not proved.
    (a) I go outside
    (b) I am unprotected from the rain
    (c) then I get wet.

    (a) I go outside
    (b) I eat a popsicle
    (c) Do I get wet? impossible to tell.
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From Richard Damon@richard@damon-family.org to comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 19 14:45:32 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/19/23 10:22 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/19/2023 7:34 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 04:02, olcott wrote:
    On 12/18/2023 11:37 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/17/23 18:11, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:

    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of >>>>>> "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you
    imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not
    dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is >>>>> syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that
    denies
    the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the
    measure.


    Can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are
    not dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    That would be incoherent: The coherence theory of truth applies to
    the analytical body of knowledge.

    I've never heard of these two, and they seem to be fully immersed in
    philosophy, not computer science or mathematical logic.

    Without Philosophy logic has no basis. The basis that logic does have is incoherent because they got the philosophy wrong.

    Nope, Without logic, Philosophy has no basis.


    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    Yes. Can you show it to NOT be valid?

    Is there a case where we have Kittens as 15 story office buildings and
    NOT have water as H2O?

    Your problem is you don't understand how logic works, and thus you don't really understand philosophy.


    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.


    And thus such a system is incorrect, as it makes an impossible to be
    false statement not to be not true.

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From Richard Damon@richard@damon-family.org to comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 19 14:51:53 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/19/23 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/19/2023 9:55 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 16:22, olcott wrote:
    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion
    nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.

    What is a necessary consequence?


    ◊ means possibly
    ◻ means necessarily
    ¬ means not
    ◊P means ¬◻¬P
    ◻P means ¬◊¬P

    A---B---A ◻ B
    t---t-----t
    t---f-----f
    f---?-----? When A is false then we know nothing about B



    In other words, your system of logic can not assign a validity to an implication.

    Note, your "conclusion" actually comes out of the normal definition of implication, since A->B is true for A being false and B being either
    True or False, then we know nothing about B.

    Note, for YOUR "truth Table" if we know that A -> B is a true sttement,
    then we can not determine that A is false from knowing that B is false.

    You have lost the relationship that A -> B alse means that ~B -> ~A




    A consequence is said to be necessary if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the antecedents to be true and the
    consequence nevertheless to be false...


    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From Richard Damon@richard@damon-family.org to comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Dec 19 14:58:35 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/19/23 12:26 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 12/19/2023 9:55 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 16:22, olcott wrote:
    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion
    nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.

    What is a necessary consequence?

    A consequence is said to be necessary if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the antecedents to be true and the
    consequence nevertheless to be false...

    *This may be a more exactly precise way to say what I mean*
    My correction to the notion of a valid argument means that the
    truth of the conclusion depends on the truth all of the premises.

    If any premise is false or irrelevant then the conclusion is not proved.
    (a) I go outside
    (b) I am unprotected from the rain
    (c) then I get wet.

    (a) I go outside
    (b) I eat a popsicle
    (c) Do I get wet? impossible to tell.



    Which means, for standard logic, your second set (where (c) makes an
    actual statement about getting wet) is just a false implication an not
    valid.

    A & B -> C is true ONLY if any time A and B are True then C is also True.

    So, a implication like

    If (a) I go outside, and (b) I eat a popsicle, then (c) I get wet is
    just a false implication, as there are cases where (a) and (b) are true
    but (c) isn't.

    Somehow you don't seem to understand that not all implications that can
    be stated are true.

    Note, just because ONE time I went outside and ate a popsicle I got wet,
    does NOT prove that implication, as to prove it you need to be able to
    look at ALL POSSIBLE cases.

    But, I guess since you think proof by example is valid, I guess that
    shows your problem with implication,
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From immibis@news@immibis.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,sci.math,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Dec 20 08:24:43 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/19/23 18:26, olcott wrote:
    *This may be a more exactly precise way to say what I mean*
    My correction to the notion of a valid argument means that the
    truth of the conclusion depends on the truth all of the premises.

    If any premise is false or irrelevant then the conclusion is not proved.
    (a) I go outside
    (b) I am unprotected from the rain
    (c) then I get wet.

    (a) I go outside
    (b) I eat a popsicle
    (c) Do I get wet? impossible to tell.



    Alright so the moon being blue is a necessary consequence of me being
    wet and not wet. If I'm wet and not wet, this proves the moon is blue,
    we can tell that, so it's a necessary consequence.
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From Nicki makethings@makethingsn@gmail.com to comp.ai.philosophy on Sun Dec 24 11:11:43 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 3:22:47 PM UTC, olcott wrote:
    On 12/19/2023 7:34 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 04:02, olcott wrote:
    On 12/18/2023 11:37 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/17/23 18:11, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:

    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of >>>>> "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you
    imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, >>>>> but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is >>>> syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies >>>> the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the >>>> measure.


    Can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not >>> dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    That would be incoherent: The coherence theory of truth applies to the
    analytical body of knowledge.

    I've never heard of these two, and they seem to be fully immersed in philosophy, not computer science or mathematical logic.
    Without Philosophy logic has no basis. The basis that logic does have is incoherent because they got the philosophy wrong.

    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    Without facts there is no proof, but, everything in philosophy is down to semantics.
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From Nicki makethings@makethingsn@gmail.com to comp.ai.philosophy on Sun Dec 24 11:28:34 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 7:11:45 PM UTC, Nicki makethings wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 3:22:47 PM UTC, olcott wrote:
    On 12/19/2023 7:34 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 04:02, olcott wrote:
    On 12/18/2023 11:37 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/17/23 18:11, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:

    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of >>>>> "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you
    imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, >>>>> but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is
    syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies
    the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the >>>> measure.


    Can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not >>> dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    That would be incoherent: The coherence theory of truth applies to the >> analytical body of knowledge.

    I've never heard of these two, and they seem to be fully immersed in philosophy, not computer science or mathematical logic.
    Without Philosophy logic has no basis. The basis that logic does have is incoherent because they got the philosophy wrong.

    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    Without facts there is no proof, but, everything in philosophy is down to semantics.
    Think of there can not be fire without water, you should require a verb (an operator) in there to say what they're doing. Semantics will separate the operator verb from the noun. We might have eaten green cheese or seen the moon but not until we have actual proof by one of our senses. Think of dogs & cats, they can seem very similar, but we should aught to have at least gotten close & observed their behaviour as a kind of 'proof' so nouns are not the very same as nouns, parse language or while you could, go to Google Groups Sci Lang & ask about operators in philosophy logic, its an idea.
    Have A Very Merry Christmas XX Nic.
    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to comp.ai.philosophy on Sun Dec 24 13:41:14 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/24/2023 1:11 PM, Nicki makethings wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 3:22:47 PM UTC, olcott wrote:
    On 12/19/2023 7:34 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 04:02, olcott wrote:
    On 12/18/2023 11:37 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/17/23 18:11, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:

    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of >>>>>>> "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you
    imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, >>>>>>> but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is >>>>>> syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies >>>>>> the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the >>>>>> measure.


    Can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not >>>>> dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    That would be incoherent: The coherence theory of truth applies to the >>>> analytical body of knowledge.

    I've never heard of these two, and they seem to be fully immersed in
    philosophy, not computer science or mathematical logic.
    Without Philosophy logic has no basis. The basis that logic does have is
    incoherent because they got the philosophy wrong.

    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion
    nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    Without facts there is no proof, but, everything in philosophy is down to semantics.

    Good job, I think that you got it!
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114
  • From olcott@polcott2@gmail.com to comp.ai.philosophy on Mon Dec 25 22:03:26 2023
    From Newsgroup: comp.ai.philosophy

    On 12/24/2023 1:11 PM, Nicki makethings wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 3:22:47 PM UTC, olcott wrote:
    On 12/19/2023 7:34 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/19/23 04:02, olcott wrote:
    On 12/18/2023 11:37 AM, immibis wrote:
    On 12/17/23 18:11, olcott wrote:
    On 12/17/2023 2:17 AM, immibis wrote:

    "The moon is made from green cheese" is a necessary consequence of >>>>>>> "all cats are dogs" and "some cats are not dogs". Or can you
    imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not dogs, >>>>>>> but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    It is not true that anything is semantically entailed by any
    contradiction. When the Principle of explosion says that everything is >>>>>> syntactically entailed by a contradiction the POE is a liar that denies >>>>>> the law of non-contradiction. For analytical truth coherence is the >>>>>> measure.


    Can you imagine a world where all cats are dogs and some cats are not >>>>> dogs, but the moon isn't made from green cheese?

    That would be incoherent: The coherence theory of truth applies to the >>>> analytical body of knowledge.

    I've never heard of these two, and they seem to be fully immersed in
    philosophy, not computer science or mathematical logic.
    Without Philosophy logic has no basis. The basis that logic does have is
    incoherent because they got the philosophy wrong.

    A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form
    that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion
    nevertheless to be false. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

    On that basis we can conclude that this sentence is valid:
    "Kittens are 15 story office buildings therefore water is H2O."

    When we redefine value to be a conclusion must be a necessary
    consequence of all of its premises then the above nonsense
    sentence is not valid.
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    Without facts there is no proof, but, everything in philosophy is down to semantics.

    All of analytic truth has two forms
    (1) Expressions stipulated to be true (AKA Facts)
    (2) Expressions derived from (1)
    --
    Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- Synchronet 3.20a-Linux NewsLink 1.114