• Anybody have any opinions on virtualization software?

    From Robert Peirce@bob@peirce-family.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Thu May 21 14:58:37 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient.
    However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not
    kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and
    the pros and cons.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From nospam@nospam@nospam.invalid to comp.sys.mac.apps on Thu May 21 15:14:08 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Robert Peirce
    <bob@peirce-family.com> wrote:

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient.
    However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and
    the pros and cons.

    use a virtual machine, such as vmware, parallels or virtual box, which
    creates a virtual host running windows, where you can run whatever
    windows apps you want without needing to reboot via boot camp.

    other operating systems can also be installed, such as linux.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Percival John Hackworth@pjh@nanoworks.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Thu May 21 12:29:55 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient. However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more
    capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not
    kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and
    the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're
    running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration City. Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    You're either running the native OS that the game was designed to run under
    or you're running a virtual machine (VM) of the OS ON TOP of Mac OS. Some OS' are better at "getting out of the way" to allow the underlaying VM access to the hardware. That's why VMware as a company still exists, IMO.

    I'm sure some games do a lot of jiggery-pokery with hardware to obtain the type of Real Time Graphics response for a player. The OS the game is written for has drivers for the hardware that allow this. I recall reading about a vendor who's open sourced a graphics driver for Linux so that gamers can try
    a game on Linux. This way lies madness and disappointment.

    A VM isn't Windows with direct access to hardware. If you plug a USB drive into a Mac running VMware Fusion, a window pops up to ask "Do you want to mount this drive on MacOS or Windows?" This is OK for a USB drive but not necessarily for a specialized GPU that's part of the new MacPro. Would a game even recognize such a specialized beast since it doesn't exist in the PC world? Kudos if the game vendor codes support for that.

    If your game needs direct access to hardware to run the graphics, I don't think VMs will help you. Nor will the VM emulate a GPU like it does an ethernet NIC or USB drive or CDROM.

    Stick with Bootcamp for your Sim Racing, then boot MacOS to do the analysis
    of what you've collected.If the game works on Fusion or Parallels, you'll
    have the best of both worlds.

    Try VirtualBox for free but you'll have to buy a copy of Windows to run your game on it. If it works well enough, you're good to go. Otherwise you'll have to decide if Bootcamp and rebooting is OK or you're gonna spend for VMware's Fusion or Parallels.
    That's your call.

    --
    DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Jolly Roger@jollyroger@pobox.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Thu May 21 20:43:45 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-21, Robert Peirce <bob@peirce-family.com> wrote:
    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very
    convenient. However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs
    that are more capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim
    rig. I'd rather transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking
    for something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment.
    I've not kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is
    available and the pros and cons.

    I would try Wine first, and if that doesn't work I' use a VM. My current favorite is VMware Fusion, but Parallels Desktop is another good choice.
    AS you may know, there are a few different ways to run Windows apps on
    Macs, ranked from least expensive to most expensive:

    Wine

    You can use Wine, a freeware application that provides a Windows
    compatibility layer, to run Windows apps without the Windows operating
    system.

    This is the least expensive way to run Windows apps on Macs because you
    don't need a Windows license or installation to do so.

    This method is the least resource intensive of all of them because it
    does not have the overhead in disk space , RAM usage, and CPU usage of
    running the Windows operating system. Wine apps are installed in a
    hidden “.wine” folder within your macOS home directory, do not require a Windows operating system install, and run right along side your Mac apps without requiring you to reboot, which is very nice.

    Note that some Windows apps may not be as stable or robust running
    within this compatibility layer as they would be running in a legitimate Windows operating system install. With that said, though, many, many
    apps run just fine this way. For instance, I've played the Windows
    version of Call of Duty 4 through Wine, where it's sometimes more stable
    on my Mac than the native Mac version of the same game! This is always
    my first choice when I need to run some miscellaneous Windows app on my
    Mac. It's usually as simple as downloading the app, double-clicking it
    to install it, and then launching it with Wine.

    Boot Camp

    macOS comes with a built-in feature called Boot Camp that lets you
    install Windows and Windows apps on a partition on your Mac's startup
    drive.

    This way is more expensive because it requires you to have a legitimate
    copy of Windows to install and activate.

    It also requires you to have enough free space on your startup drive to
    be able to create a partition on it large enough to hold Windows and
    your Windows apps. And you can't easily put that partition on a separate
    drive.

    The major drawback is that this requires you to reboot your Mac any time
    you want to run Windows apps, and then reboot again when you want to use
    Mac apps. You can't run Windows and Mac apps along side each other.

    Despite that shortcoming, Windows apps do run very well and very fast
    this way. For certain apps (primarily apps that make use of 3D graphics
    like games and VR apps) this is the best solution since the apps have
    direct native access to the GPU. But the fact that you have to reboot is
    a turnoff for a lot of people, which brings us to...

    Virtual Machines

    You can use a virtual machine like VMware Fusion, Parallels Desktop, or VirtualBox to install Windows into a virtual machine that runs on your
    Mac.

    This way is more expensive because it requires you to have a legitimate
    copy of Windows to install and activate. And VMware Fusion and Parallels Desktop cost $79.99 as of this writing, while VirtualBox is free (though
    has fewer features, much less integration with macOS, and is harder to
    set up).

    Using a virtual machine is also more resource intensive since the VM
    shares CPU, RAM, and disk space with macOS. Since Windows requires a significant amount of RAM to run properly, you should have at least 8GB
    of RAM installed in your Mac (more is better - at least 16GB would be
    best). Like Boot Camp, it also requires disk space to allocate to a
    virtual hard drive large enough to hold the Windows operating system,
    apps, and user files you will create with it. But unlike Boot Camp, it
    doesn't partition your startup drive; instead it creates virtual disk
    images stored as normal Mac files. And you can put the virtual disk
    image files wherever you want - even an external drive. It is more CPU intensive because you are running the entire Windows operating system
    and built-in apps within macOS.

    Despite the increased resource usage, this way is often the one people
    choose because it lets you run Windows apps along side Mac apps without
    having to reboot your Mac. And as long as your computer meets the system requirements of the VM software you use, the speed is generally
    terrific: with the exception of 3D action games, you generally cannot
    tell any speed difference between this and Boot Camp.

    This method also provides some really nice integration functionality
    between Windows and macOS. For instance VMware Fusion and Parallels
    Desktop let you drag and drop files, copy and paste, and so on between
    Windows and macOS. VirtualBox doesn't have as many of those features;
    and setup isn't as easy either (you get what you pay for).

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 09:08:53 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-21 14:58, Robert Peirce wrote:
    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing.  The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data.  So far I have been using an analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient.
     However, it s a bit limited.  There are PC only programs that are more capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig.  I'd rather transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment.  I've not kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and
    the pros and cons.

    I've been using VMWare Fusion since I first bought a Mac in 2008. Use
    it here at home and at work to run various Windows versions and
    occasionally Linux.

    I've stuck with them because that's what I've always had. But a few
    years ago some site did extensive testing and found Parallels to be
    measurably faster. It wasn't very significant, but if speed is
    important I'd go that way. I have no experience with it other than
    fixing a friend's settings in it some years ago.

    Whatever you do, do backups of the entire "VMBundle" from time to time.
    Over those 12 years I've had a "damaged" VM that I could not get to
    recover at least 2 times. The backup "paved" that over.

    Exclude the VM from Time Machine - TM will backup the entire VM each
    time you close the VM since "something" no matter how small will change
    in the VM file. The VM file is huge and will fill your TM volume
    quickly (not to mention a very long backup time).

    Instead, manually backup the VM. (Simple drag of "VMBundle" in finder
    to the backup folder) or use some scheduled process to do so. Ideally,
    never backup the VM while it is running.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 09:21:35 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-21 15:29, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an
    analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient.
    However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more
    capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather
    transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for
    something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not
    kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and
    the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration City. Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    This is misleading.

    VM's run on the hardware. It's not emulation. So whatever task you're
    doing on the whole machine, you would have been doing it under one OS or
    the other in any case.

    Besides, when running bootcamp you can't drag and drop files between the
    two OS's like you can, seamlessly, with a VM. That is a key benefit.

    Yes, there's a "cost", but it is extremely minimal. The x86 processor
    has many features designed solely with VMs in mind - likewise Mac OS.

    You're either running the native OS that the game was designed to run under or you're running a virtual machine (VM) of the OS ON TOP of Mac OS. Some OS' are better at "getting out of the way" to allow the underlaying VM access to the hardware. That's why VMware as a company still exists, IMO.

    VMWare is much much more than desktop VM's. VM's are not a new thing -
    they go back to the 60's.

    And Parallels is even better at getting out of the way per tests done a
    few years ago. (I use VMWare Fusion because I always have, but I could switch...)


    I'm sure some games do a lot of jiggery-pokery with hardware to obtain the type of Real Time Graphics response for a player. The OS the game is written for has drivers for the hardware that allow this. I recall reading about a vendor who's open sourced a graphics driver for Linux so that gamers can try a game on Linux. This way lies madness and disappointment.

    A VM isn't Windows with direct access to hardware. If you plug a USB drive into a Mac running VMware Fusion, a window pops up to ask "Do you want to mount this drive on MacOS or Windows?" This is OK for a USB drive but not necessarily for a specialized GPU that's part of the new MacPro. Would a game even recognize such a specialized beast since it doesn't exist in the PC world? Kudos if the game vendor codes support for that.

    If your game needs direct access to hardware to run the graphics, I don't think VMs will help you. Nor will the VM emulate a GPU like it does an ethernet NIC or USB drive or CDROM.

    VM's don't emulate. They "connect". That's a key difference you don't
    seem to get.

    IAC, sim racing is not "gaming".


    Stick with Bootcamp for your Sim Racing, then boot MacOS to do the analysis of what you've collected.If the game works on Fusion or Parallels, you'll have the best of both worlds.

    Try VirtualBox for free but you'll have to buy a copy of Windows to run your game on it. If it works well enough, you're good to go. Otherwise you'll have to decide if Bootcamp and rebooting is OK or you're gonna spend for VMware's Fusion or Parallels.
    That's your call.

    VB is nowhere as good as Fusion (VMWare) or Parallels. It would be like taking a Honda Civic for a test drive to decide on buying a Honda Accord
    2L Turbo.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Lewis@g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 14:53:07 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In message <uq2dna6bsMR9TFrDnZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-21 15:29, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an
    analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient. >>> However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more
    capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather
    transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for >>> something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not
    kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and
    the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago >> and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a >> free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between >> environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're
    running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and >> install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration City.
    Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    This is misleading.

    VM's run on the hardware. It's not emulation. So whatever task you're doing on the whole machine, you would have been doing it under one OS or
    the other in any case.

    Besides, when running bootcamp you can't drag and drop files between the
    two OS's like you can, seamlessly, with a VM. That is a key benefit.

    Yes, there's a "cost", but it is extremely minimal. The x86 processor
    has many features designed solely with VMs in mind - likewise Mac OS.

    The only place it really makes a difference that may be notiable is in
    games, and even there, it has to be a twitchy game and you have to be
    good at it.

    And Parallels is even better at getting out of the way per tests done a
    few years ago. (I use VMWare Fusion because I always have, but I could switch...)

    I've used both, but not recently. My impression of the current state from others is that Parallels is slightly faster and VMware Fusion is
    slightly more stable.

    What I do not like about them is you have to buy the software again
    every year, and I have little enough need to Windows that it is simply
    not worth it.

    VB is nowhere as good as Fusion (VMWare) or Parallels. It would be like taking a Honda Civic for a test drive to decide on buying a Honda Accord
    2L Turbo.

    I don't understand your car reference, but VirtualBox is a significant
    step down in usability, features, stability, and speed over VM Ware
    Fusion or Parallels. It is fine to use in a pinch, or because you need to
    run some windows software (though wine is usually just as good), but I
    would not use it with any games.

    --
    AUDITORS OF REALITY. THEY THINK OF LIFE AS A STAIN ON THE UNIVERSE. A
    PESTILENCE. MESSY. GETTING IN THE WAY. 'In the way of what?' THE
    EFFICIENT RUNNING OF THE UNIVERSE.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Robert Peirce@bob@peirce-family.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 13:23:33 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 5/22/20 9:08 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
    Exclude the VM from Time Machine - TM will backup the entire VM each
    time you close the VM since "something" no matter how small will change
    in the VM file.  The VM file is huge and will fill your TM volume
    quickly (not to mention a very long backup time).

    Instead, manually backup the VM.  (Simple drag of "VMBundle" in finder
    to the backup folder) or use some scheduled process to do so.  Ideally, never backup the VM while it is running.


    Wow! Thanks for that! I already have a couple of directories that
    rarely change on my Time Machine drive so this should be fairly easy if
    I have to go this route.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Robert Peirce@bob@peirce-family.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 13:48:29 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 5/21/20 4:43 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
    I would try Wine first, and if that doesn't work I' use a VM. My current favorite is VMware Fusion, but Parallels Desktop is another good choice.
    AS you may know, there are a few different ways to run Windows apps on
    Macs, ranked from least expensive to most expensive:

    Wine

    You can use Wine, a freeware application that provides a Windows compatibility layer, to run Windows apps without the Windows operating system.

    I thought I had followed up to this but it hasn't posted so I must have screwed up.

    Since I am only trying to run one program, Wine looks like a good way to
    go. However, I found the Wine web site, winehq.org, and discovered
    Catalina is not currently supported. I'm still running Mojave but that
    is only because a key app I run also doesn't work under Catalina yet.
    Any idea when/if Wine will support Catalina?

    I have steered clear of bootcamp because I didn't really want to boot
    into a totally separate OS. To the extent possible I would like to stay
    in Mac OS. My PC is on the same network as my Mac and it is easy to
    drag files over.

    If Wine doesn't work I'll check out VMfusion and parallels, but I hope I
    don't have to install an entire OS in order to run one program.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Jolly Roger@jollyroger@pobox.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 18:38:54 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-22, Robert Peirce <bob@peirce-family.com> wrote:
    On 5/21/20 4:43 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
    I would try Wine first, and if that doesn't work I' use a VM. My current
    favorite is VMware Fusion, but Parallels Desktop is another good choice.
    AS you may know, there are a few different ways to run Windows apps on
    Macs, ranked from least expensive to most expensive:

    Wine

    You can use Wine, a freeware application that provides a Windows
    compatibility layer, to run Windows apps without the Windows operating
    system.

    I thought I had followed up to this but it hasn't posted so I must have screwed up.

    No worries.

    Since I am only trying to run one program, Wine looks like a good way to
    go. However, I found the Wine web site, winehq.org, and discovered
    Catalina is not currently supported. I'm still running Mojave but that
    is only because a key app I run also doesn't work under Catalina yet.
    Any idea when/if Wine will support Catalina?

    I haven't looked up the wine32on64 roadmap. I've seen discussion of it
    in this forum thread though, if you're interested in details:

    <https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=32590>

    However, *CrossOver* version 19+ currently runs in Catalina. Read about
    it here:

    <https://www.codeweavers.com/about/blogs/jwhite/2019/12/10/celebrating-the-difficult-the-release-of-crossover-19>

    You can download a free trial of CrossOver from their website to try it
    out for yourself.

    I almost purchased CrossOver a couple months ago, but the app I wanted to run at the time didn't run correctly in it. : ( Luckily, I already have a
    VMware Fusion Windows 10 VM for such occasions.

    I have steered clear of bootcamp because I didn't really want to boot
    into a totally separate OS. To the extent possible I would like to stay
    in Mac OS. My PC is on the same network as my Mac and it is easy to
    drag files over.

    The only reason I would resort to Boot Camp is if I absolutely needed to
    run something that doesn't run well in a VM. Luckily, most things I need
    run just fine in a VM.

    If Wine doesn't work I'll check out VMfusion and parallels, but I hope I don't have to install an entire OS in order to run one program.

    That's what's nice about Wine - no host OS required.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 15:16:31 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-22 10:53, Lewis wrote:
    In message <uq2dna6bsMR9TFrDnZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-21 15:29, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an
    analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient. >>>> However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more
    capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather >>>> transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for >>>> something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not >>>> kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and >>>> the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago
    and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a
    free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between >>> environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're
    running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and
    install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration City.
    Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    This is misleading.

    VM's run on the hardware. It's not emulation. So whatever task you're
    doing on the whole machine, you would have been doing it under one OS or
    the other in any case.

    Besides, when running bootcamp you can't drag and drop files between the
    two OS's like you can, seamlessly, with a VM. That is a key benefit.

    Yes, there's a "cost", but it is extremely minimal. The x86 processor
    has many features designed solely with VMs in mind - likewise Mac OS.

    The only place it really makes a difference that may be notiable is in
    games, and even there, it has to be a twitchy game and you have to be
    good at it.

    And Parallels is even better at getting out of the way per tests done a
    few years ago. (I use VMWare Fusion because I always have, but I could
    switch...)

    I've used both, but not recently. My impression of the current state from others is that Parallels is slightly faster and VMware Fusion is
    slightly more stable.

    What I do not like about them is you have to buy the software again
    every year, and I have little enough need to Windows that it is simply
    not worth it.

    No you don't.

    I pay to upgrade it every few years. Then I lose eligibility (age of
    the v. I have) and have to buy the complete package. It's useful enough
    to me for both personal and business that it's worth the cost. But it's
    not an "annual" re-purchase at all.


    VB is nowhere as good as Fusion (VMWare) or Parallels. It would be like
    taking a Honda Civic for a test drive to decide on buying a Honda Accord
    2L Turbo.

    I don't understand your car reference, but VirtualBox is a significant
    step down in usability, features, stability, and speed over VM Ware
    Fusion or Parallels. It is fine to use in a pinch, or because you need to
    run some windows software (though wine is usually just as good), but I
    would not use it with any games.

    Well, I could have gone with LADA v. Honda Accord.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 15:26:22 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-22 13:48, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/21/20 4:43 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
    I would try Wine first, and if that doesn't work I' use a VM. My current
    favorite is VMware Fusion, but Parallels Desktop is another good choice.
    AS you may know, there are a few different ways to run Windows apps on
    Macs, ranked from least expensive to most expensive:

    Wine

    You can use Wine, a freeware application that provides a Windows
    compatibility layer, to run Windows apps without the Windows operating
    system.

    I thought I had followed up to this but it hasn't posted so I must have screwed up.

    Since I am only trying to run one program, Wine looks like a good way to go.  However, I found the Wine web site, winehq.org, and discovered Catalina is not currently supported.  I'm still running Mojave but that
    is only because a key app I run also doesn't work under Catalina yet.
    Any idea when/if Wine will support Catalina?

    I used Wine about 5 years ago with little overall success. I don't
    recall the issue but the app I "wined" lost some functionality in the
    process and also had some strange display behaviour.

    I have steered clear of bootcamp because I didn't really want to boot
    into a totally separate OS.  To the extent possible I would like to stay
    in Mac OS.  My PC is on the same network as my Mac and it is easy to
    drag files over.

    If Wine doesn't work I'll check out VMfusion and parallels, but I hope I don't have to install an entire OS in order to run one program.

    I believe you'd be better off overall to simply remote log into your PC
    from the Mac. RealVNC has tools for that. Then you can "window" on the
    PC from the Mac and transferring files can be done several ways. https://www.realvnc.com/en/connect/download/vnc/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Lewis@g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 21:42:44 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In message <1_WdndOiSJmNuFXDnZ2dnUU7-N3NnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 10:53, Lewis wrote:
    In message <uq2dna6bsMR9TFrDnZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-21 15:29, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an >>>>> analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient. >>>>> However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more >>>>> capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather >>>>> transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for >>>>> something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not >>>>> kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and >>>>> the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago
    and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a
    free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between
    environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're >>>> running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and
    install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration City.
    Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    This is misleading.

    VM's run on the hardware. It's not emulation. So whatever task you're
    doing on the whole machine, you would have been doing it under one OS or >>> the other in any case.

    Besides, when running bootcamp you can't drag and drop files between the >>> two OS's like you can, seamlessly, with a VM. That is a key benefit.

    Yes, there's a "cost", but it is extremely minimal. The x86 processor
    has many features designed solely with VMs in mind - likewise Mac OS.

    The only place it really makes a difference that may be notiable is in
    games, and even there, it has to be a twitchy game and you have to be
    good at it.

    And Parallels is even better at getting out of the way per tests done a
    few years ago. (I use VMWare Fusion because I always have, but I could
    switch...)

    I've used both, but not recently. My impression of the current state from
    others is that Parallels is slightly faster and VMware Fusion is
    slightly more stable.

    What I do not like about them is you have to buy the software again
    every year, and I have little enough need to Windows that it is simply
    not worth it.

    No you don't.

    Do.

    I pay to upgrade it every few years.

    Then you are not keeping your systems up to date. Parallels specifically
    broke their software with new versions of the OS for several years
    running. I do not know if they still do that, but they did and I stopped
    using it.

    Then I lose eligibility (age of the v. I have) and have to buy the
    complete package. It's useful enough to me for both personal and
    business that it's worth the cost. But it's not an "annual"
    re-purchase at all.

    When you charge 80% of the purchase price for an update that does
    nothing but work on your current OS it is close enough.

    VB is nowhere as good as Fusion (VMWare) or Parallels. It would be like >>> taking a Honda Civic for a test drive to decide on buying a Honda Accord >>> 2L Turbo.

    I don't understand your car reference, but VirtualBox is a significant
    step down in usability, features, stability, and speed over VM Ware
    Fusion or Parallels. It is fine to use in a pinch, or because you need to
    run some windows software (though wine is usually just as good), but I
    would not use it with any games.

    Well, I could have gone with LADA v. Honda Accord.

    That would have been understandable to me, at least.



    --
    "What if your DOPE was on fire?" "Impossible, sir, it's in Johnson's
    underwear."
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Lewis@g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 21:46:34 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In message <ra939c$ah2$1@gioia.aioe.org> Robert Peirce <bob@peirce-family.com> wrote:
    On 5/21/20 4:43 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
    I would try Wine first, and if that doesn't work I' use a VM. My current
    favorite is VMware Fusion, but Parallels Desktop is another good choice.
    AS you may know, there are a few different ways to run Windows apps on
    Macs, ranked from least expensive to most expensive:

    Wine

    You can use Wine, a freeware application that provides a Windows
    compatibility layer, to run Windows apps without the Windows operating
    system.

    I thought I had followed up to this but it hasn't posted so I must have screwed up.

    Since I am only trying to run one program, Wine looks like a good way to
    go. However, I found the Wine web site, winehq.org, and discovered
    Catalina is not currently supported. I'm still running Mojave but that
    is only because a key app I run also doesn't work under Catalina yet.
    Any idea when/if Wine will support Catalina?

    IIRC the wine project for macOS made the (idiotic, IMO) decision to
    stick with 32-bit until Apple finally removed support. I do not know the details, but for wine to work under Catalina it will have to be 100%
    64-bit. Will this ever happen? I wouldn't be at all surprised if it
    didn't as it is very little reward for a great deal of work.

    I have steered clear of bootcamp because I didn't really want to boot
    into a totally separate OS. To the extent possible I would like to stay
    in Mac OS. My PC is on the same network as my Mac and it is easy to
    drag files over.

    If you have a PC then use it to run your windows programs?

    If Wine doesn't work I'll check out VMfusion and parallels, but I hope I don't have to install an entire OS in order to run one program.

    That is how those work, yes.

    --
    When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is
    possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that
    something is impossible, he is probably wrong.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Jolly Roger@jollyroger@pobox.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 21:52:03 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-22, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 13:48, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/21/20 4:43 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
    I would try Wine first, and if that doesn't work I' use a VM. My
    current favorite is VMware Fusion, but Parallels Desktop is another
    good choice. AS you may know, there are a few different ways to run
    Windows apps on Macs, ranked from least expensive to most expensive:

    Wine

    You can use Wine, a freeware application that provides a Windows
    compatibility layer, to run Windows apps without the Windows
    operating system.

    I thought I had followed up to this but it hasn't posted so I must
    have screwed up.

    Since I am only trying to run one program, Wine looks like a good way
    to go.  However, I found the Wine web site, winehq.org, and
    discovered Catalina is not currently supported.  I'm still running
    Mojave but that is only because a key app I run also doesn't work
    under Catalina yet. Any idea when/if Wine will support Catalina?

    I used Wine about 5 years ago with little overall success. I don't
    recall the issue but the app I "wined" lost some functionality in the
    process and also had some strange display behaviour.

    I've used Wine for many years, with plenty of success running several
    different Windows apps, ranging from various small utilities to Call of
    Duty 4: Modern Warfare.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From nospam@nospam@nospam.invalid to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 18:06:14 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In article <slrnrcghqk.4a1.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

    I pay to upgrade it every few years.

    Then you are not keeping your systems up to date. Parallels specifically broke their software with new versions of the OS for several years
    running. I do not know if they still do that, but they did and I stopped using it.

    parallels also has embedded ads, which is when they immediately went
    onto my shitlist, and it looks like they *still* do that.

    from 2012:
    <https://forum.parallels.com/threads/turn-off-ads.258991/>
    How do I turn off the ads? If I pay for a product I should not be
    forced to deal with ads. By the way Avast detects your ad loader
    as a Trojan. Win32:Adloader-AC. Is Parallels using Trojans on its
    paying and trusting customers?
    ...
    I can confirm that my previous post in this very thread got deleted,
    likely because I dared to mention details on how exactly to turn the
    ads off. This speaks volumes of the attitude of this company to its
    paying customers. Yes, they are on the forum, they are listening,
    and the ads and a non-functional "disable" checkbox are a conscious
    business decision.
    ...

    official response (after a slew of angry posts): <https://forum.parallels.com/threads/turn-off-ads.258991/page-2#post-632

    We use in-product notifications to share several types of information
    with our customers. First, and most importantly, we share information
    about product updates which are generally related to compatibility
    with OS X, new features and product enhancements. Second, we
    occasionally share special offers from Parallels or other third party
    companies who provide special deals for our customers. Many of our
    customers rely on the information about product updates and
    appreciate the special deals for products that are of interest to
    them.

    Individual notifications can be turned off by clicking the dont show
    this again button. However, because customers need to receive
    important product information, there is not a mechanism for customers
    to completely disable notifications.

    Thank you for sharing your opinion. At times, Parallels staff may
    remove or edit posts that contain product code information which
    changes the general nature of the product, as it may affect the
    overall performance of the software.


    and it looks like they're still doing it in 2020: <https://forum.parallels.com/threads/push-notification-advertisements-ar e-not-ok.349267/>
    I just got an *ad* via notification from Parallels (for $949 worth
    of software for $39.99!) , and I just wanted to say this is
    unacceptable. Save that sort of nonsense for promotional e-mails
    where I can completely ignore them, never make it pop up on my
    desktop. That commercial software I pay for would do this is simply
    offensive. So, here's my new notification setting for Parallels:
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Jolly Roger@jollyroger@pobox.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 23:51:56 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-22, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <slrnrcghqk.4a1.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>, Lewis
    <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

    I pay to upgrade it every few years.

    Then you are not keeping your systems up to date. Parallels specifically
    broke their software with new versions of the OS for several years
    running. I do not know if they still do that, but they did and I stopped
    using it.

    parallels also has embedded ads, which is when they immediately went
    onto my shitlist, and it looks like they *still* do that.

    Wow. Fuck that. Glad I ended up sticking with VMware Fusion.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Percival John Hackworth@pjh@nanoworks.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 17:09:25 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 22-May-2020, Alan Browne wrote
    (in article<uq2dna6bsMR9TFrDnZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com>):

    On 2020-05-21 15:29, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient. However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago
    and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a
    free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and
    install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration City.
    Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    This is misleading.

    VM's run on the hardware. It's not emulation. So whatever task you're
    doing on the whole machine, you would have been doing it under one OS or
    the other in any case.

    Besides, when running bootcamp you can't drag and drop files between the
    two OS's like you can, seamlessly, with a VM. That is a key benefit.

    Yes, there's a "cost", but it is extremely minimal. The x86 processor
    has many features designed solely with VMs in mind - likewise Mac OS.

    You're either running the native OS that the game was designed to run under or you're running a virtual machine (VM) of the OS ON TOP of Mac OS. Some OS'
    are better at "getting out of the way" to allow the underlaying VM access to
    the hardware. That's why VMware as a company still exists, IMO.

    VMWare is much much more than desktop VM's. VM's are not a new thing -
    they go back to the 60's.

    And Parallels is even better at getting out of the way per tests done a
    few years ago. (I use VMWare Fusion because I always have, but I could switch...)


    I'm sure some games do a lot of jiggery-pokery with hardware to obtain the type of Real Time Graphics response for a player. The OS the game is written
    for has drivers for the hardware that allow this. I recall reading about a vendor who's open sourced a graphics driver for Linux so that gamers can try
    a game on Linux. This way lies madness and disappointment.

    A VM isn't Windows with direct access to hardware. If you plug a USB drive into a Mac running VMware Fusion, a window pops up to ask "Do you want to mount this drive on MacOS or Windows?" This is OK for a USB drive but not necessarily for a specialized GPU that's part of the new MacPro. Would a game
    even recognize such a specialized beast since it doesn't exist in the PC world? Kudos if the game vendor codes support for that.

    If your game needs direct access to hardware to run the graphics, I don't think VMs will help you. Nor will the VM emulate a GPU like it does an ethernet NIC or USB drive or CDROM.

    VM's don't emulate. They "connect". That's a key difference you don't
    seem to get.

    IAC, sim racing is not "gaming".


    Stick with Bootcamp for your Sim Racing, then boot MacOS to do the analysis of what you've collected.If the game works on Fusion or Parallels, you'll have the best of both worlds.

    Try VirtualBox for free but you'll have to buy a copy of Windows to run your
    game on it. If it works well enough, you're good to go. Otherwise you'll have
    to decide if Bootcamp and rebooting is OK or you're gonna spend for VMware's
    Fusion or Parallels.
    That's your call.

    VB is nowhere as good as Fusion (VMWare) or Parallels. It would be like taking a Honda Civic for a test drive to decide on buying a Honda Accord
    2L Turbo.

    My apologies for not making it clear. I know the x86 instruction isn't being "emulated" by the current batch of VM software. My key point is that to
    access the GPU and other specific hardware under Windows, the OS does so through the drivers written for Windows. To do the same under Fusion/Parallels, the software has to go through the Windows virtual machine, which is "trapped" by Fusion/Parallels and the Windows API representing an ethernet NIC or a USB card or a CDROM (which is pretending to be that card which may or may not exist on your Mac...my ethernet NIC on my MacPro isn't a what VMware is presenting to Windows--to me that's emulating the NIC, but I quibble).

    The GPU these games might use from Nvidia may not work on a MacPro. They certainly won't exist on a laptop. So Fusion/Parallels traps those HW calls
    or tells the Windows VM "I don't have that hardware".

    While I wrote my post, it occurred to me that perhaps the OP could create their analysis code and program in a Docker container. It would use whatever OS they decide on inside the container, run the results using the Dockerized environment and run under W10's Docker or MacOS' Docker.

    --
    DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From ant@ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 23:00:54 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <slrnrcghqk.4a1.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

    I pay to upgrade it every few years.

    Then you are not keeping your systems up to date. Parallels specifically broke their software with new versions of the OS for several years
    running. I do not know if they still do that, but they did and I stopped using it.

    parallels also has embedded ads, which is when they immediately went
    onto my shitlist, and it looks like they *still* do that.

    from 2012:
    <https://forum.parallels.com/threads/turn-off-ads.258991/>
    How do I turn off the ads? If I pay for a product I should not be
    forced to deal with ads. By the way Avast detects your ad loader
    as a Trojan. Win32:Adloader-AC. Is Parallels using Trojans on its
    paying and trusting customers?
    ...
    I can confirm that my previous post in this very thread got deleted,
    likely because I dared to mention details on how exactly to turn the
    ads off. This speaks volumes of the attitude of this company to its
    paying customers. Yes, they are on the forum, they are listening,
    and the ads and a non-functional "disable" checkbox are a conscious
    business decision.
    ...

    official response (after a slew of angry posts): <https://forum.parallels.com/threads/turn-off-ads.258991/page-2#post-632

    We use in-product notifications to share several types of information
    with our customers. First, and most importantly, we share information
    about product updates which are generally related to compatibility
    with OS X, new features and product enhancements. Second, we
    occasionally share special offers from Parallels or other third party
    companies who provide special deals for our customers. Many of our
    customers rely on the information about product updates and
    appreciate the special deals for products that are of interest to
    them.

    Individual notifications can be turned off by clicking the dont show
    this again button. However, because customers need to receive
    important product information, there is not a mechanism for customers
    to completely disable notifications.

    Thank you for sharing your opinion. At times, Parallels staff may
    remove or edit posts that contain product code information which
    changes the general nature of the product, as it may affect the
    overall performance of the software.


    and it looks like they're still doing it in 2020: <https://forum.parallels.com/threads/push-notification-advertisements-ar e-not-ok.349267/>
    I just got an *ad* via notification from Parallels (for $949 worth
    of software for $39.99!) , and I just wanted to say this is
    unacceptable. Save that sort of nonsense for promotional e-mails
    where I can completely ignore them, never make it pop up on my
    desktop. That commercial software I pay for would do this is simply
    offensive. So, here's my new notification setting for Parallels:

    Wow. If it has ads, then why is it not free? If users want no ads, then make it paid.
    --
    ..!.. illness like COVID-19/2019-nCoV/SARS-CoV-2!
    Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
    /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org /
    / /\ /\ \ http://antfarm.ma.cx. Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
    | |o o| |
    \ _ /
    ( )
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From ant@ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) to comp.sys.mac.apps on Fri May 22 23:26:25 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

    Whatever you do, do backups of the entire "VMBundle" from time to time.
    Over those 12 years I've had a "damaged" VM that I could not get to
    recover at least 2 times. The backup "paved" that over.

    Exclude the VM from Time Machine - TM will backup the entire VM each
    time you close the VM since "something" no matter how small will change
    in the VM file. The VM file is huge and will fill your TM volume
    quickly (not to mention a very long backup time).

    Instead, manually backup the VM. (Simple drag of "VMBundle" in finder
    to the backup folder) or use some scheduled process to do so. Ideally, never backup the VM while it is running.

    Ditto.
    --
    ..!.. illness like COVID-19/2019-nCoV/SARS-CoV-2!
    Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
    /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org /
    / /\ /\ \ http://antfarm.ma.cx. Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
    | |o o| |
    \ _ /
    ( )
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Lewis@g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sat May 23 15:09:30 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In message <hir6ssF61v2U1@mid.individual.net> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <slrnrcghqk.4a1.g.kreme@ProMini.lan>, Lewis >><g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

    I pay to upgrade it every few years.

    Then you are not keeping your systems up to date. Parallels specifically >>> broke their software with new versions of the OS for several years
    running. I do not know if they still do that, but they did and I stopped >>> using it.

    parallels also has embedded ads, which is when they immediately went
    onto my shitlist, and it looks like they *still* do that.

    Wow. Fuck that. Glad I ended up sticking with VMware Fusion.

    Yeah, that is fucked up.

    OK, Never recommending anyone look at Parallels.

    --
    and I lift my glass to the Awful Truth / which you can't reveal to
    the Ears of Youth / except to say it isn't worth a dime
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Robert Peirce@bob@peirce-family.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sat May 23 11:34:40 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 5/22/20 3:26 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    I believe you'd be better off overall to simply remote log into your PC
    from the Mac.  RealVNC has tools for that.  Then you can "window" on the PC from the Mac and transferring files can be done several ways. https://www.realvnc.com/en/connect/download/vnc/

    Didn't know I could do that. I'll have to check it out. Thanks.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Robert Peirce@bob@peirce-family.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sat May 23 11:38:14 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 5/22/20 5:46 PM, Lewis wrote:
    If you have a PC then use it to run your windows programs?



    It is a dedicated racing sim PC. I've tried running other programs and
    it isn't really comfortable. I much prefer sitting at my desk for this
    kind of stuff. I'm going to look into VNC to see if that might be the
    way to do it.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Robert Peirce@bob@peirce-family.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sat May 23 16:49:46 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 5/23/20 11:34 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/22/20 3:26 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    I believe you'd be better off overall to simply remote log into your
    PC from the Mac.  RealVNC has tools for that.  Then you can "window"
    on the PC from the Mac and transferring files can be done several ways.
    https://www.realvnc.com/en/connect/download/vnc/

    Didn't know I could do that.  I'll have to check it out.  Thanks.

    I was able to download this and get it working. I haven't tried to do anything yet but it looks good so far. Thanks.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Robert Peirce@bob@peirce-family.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sat May 23 18:35:33 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 5/23/20 4:49 PM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/23/20 11:34 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/22/20 3:26 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    I believe you'd be better off overall to simply remote log into your
    PC from the Mac.  RealVNC has tools for that.  Then you can "window"
    on the PC from the Mac and transferring files can be done several ways.
    https://www.realvnc.com/en/connect/download/vnc/

    Didn't know I could do that.  I'll have to check it out.  Thanks.

    I was able to download this and get it working.  I haven't tried to do anything yet but it looks good so far.  Thanks.

    OK. Apparently I can do anything on the PC but I can't move files back
    and forth using the personal version. Fortunately I can do that with
    file sharing so I think I'm in good shape. Thanks, again.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Lewis@g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 01:58:31 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In message <rabg16$68n$1@gioia.aioe.org> Robert Peirce <bob@peirce-family.com> wrote:
    On 5/22/20 5:46 PM, Lewis wrote:
    If you have a PC then use it to run your windows programs?

    It is a dedicated racing sim PC. I've tried running other programs and
    it isn't really comfortable.

    You've heard of VNC? Or other screen-sharing like Microsoft Remote
    Desktop? You don't have to sit in your racing chair to use your PC.

    I much prefer sitting at my desk for this
    kind of stuff. I'm going to look into VNC to see if that might be the
    way to do it.

    MRD is better in my experience, and is available for Mac and iOS.

    --
    "Making music should not be left to the professionals." - Michelle
    Shocked
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 09:52:52 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-22 17:42, Lewis wrote:
    In message <1_WdndOiSJmNuFXDnZ2dnUU7-N3NnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 10:53, Lewis wrote:
    In message <uq2dna6bsMR9TFrDnZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-21 15:29, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the >>>>>> ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an >>>>>> analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient. >>>>>> However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more >>>>>> capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather >>>>>> transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for >>>>>> something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not >>>>>> kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and >>>>>> the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago
    and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a
    free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between
    environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're >>>>> running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and
    install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration City.
    Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    This is misleading.

    VM's run on the hardware. It's not emulation. So whatever task you're >>>> doing on the whole machine, you would have been doing it under one OS or >>>> the other in any case.

    Besides, when running bootcamp you can't drag and drop files between the >>>> two OS's like you can, seamlessly, with a VM. That is a key benefit.

    Yes, there's a "cost", but it is extremely minimal. The x86 processor >>>> has many features designed solely with VMs in mind - likewise Mac OS.

    The only place it really makes a difference that may be notiable is in
    games, and even there, it has to be a twitchy game and you have to be
    good at it.

    And Parallels is even better at getting out of the way per tests done a >>>> few years ago. (I use VMWare Fusion because I always have, but I could >>>> switch...)

    I've used both, but not recently. My impression of the current state from >>> others is that Parallels is slightly faster and VMware Fusion is
    slightly more stable.

    What I do not like about them is you have to buy the software again
    every year, and I have little enough need to Windows that it is simply
    not worth it.

    No you don't.

    Do.

    No you do not _have_ to do so annually. There is no contractual or
    (usually) any technical reason to do so.


    I pay to upgrade it every few years.

    Then you are not keeping your systems up to date. Parallels specifically broke their software with new versions of the OS for several years
    running. I do not know if they still do that, but they did and I stopped using it.

    It only has to be up-to-date enough. I've been running Fusion since
    2008 and only paid for updates 4 times. No issues.


    Then I lose eligibility (age of the v. I have) and have to buy the
    complete package. It's useful enough to me for both personal and
    business that it's worth the cost. But it's not an "annual"
    re-purchase at all.

    When you charge 80% of the purchase price for an update that does
    nothing but work on your current OS it is close enough.

    And only do that every few years, so no big deal.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 10:01:03 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-22 20:09, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 22-May-2020, Alan Browne wrote
    (in article<uq2dna6bsMR9TFrDnZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com>):

    On 2020-05-21 15:29, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the
    ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an
    analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient. >>>> However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more
    capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather >>>> transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for >>>> something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not >>>> kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and >>>> the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago
    and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a
    free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between >>> environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're
    running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and
    install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration
    City.
    Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    This is misleading.

    VM's run on the hardware. It's not emulation. So whatever task you're
    doing on the whole machine, you would have been doing it under one OS or
    the other in any case.

    Besides, when running bootcamp you can't drag and drop files between the
    two OS's like you can, seamlessly, with a VM. That is a key benefit.

    Yes, there's a "cost", but it is extremely minimal. The x86 processor
    has many features designed solely with VMs in mind - likewise Mac OS.

    You're either running the native OS that the game was designed to run under >>> or you're running a virtual machine (VM) of the OS ON TOP of Mac OS. Some >>> OS'
    are better at "getting out of the way" to allow the underlaying VM access to
    the hardware. That's why VMware as a company still exists, IMO.

    VMWare is much much more than desktop VM's. VM's are not a new thing -
    they go back to the 60's.

    And Parallels is even better at getting out of the way per tests done a
    few years ago. (I use VMWare Fusion because I always have, but I could
    switch...)


    I'm sure some games do a lot of jiggery-pokery with hardware to obtain the >>> type of Real Time Graphics response for a player. The OS the game is written
    for has drivers for the hardware that allow this. I recall reading about a >>> vendor who's open sourced a graphics driver for Linux so that gamers can try
    a game on Linux. This way lies madness and disappointment.

    A VM isn't Windows with direct access to hardware. If you plug a USB drive >>> into a Mac running VMware Fusion, a window pops up to ask "Do you want to >>> mount this drive on MacOS or Windows?" This is OK for a USB drive but not >>> necessarily for a specialized GPU that's part of the new MacPro. Would a >>> game
    even recognize such a specialized beast since it doesn't exist in the PC >>> world? Kudos if the game vendor codes support for that.

    If your game needs direct access to hardware to run the graphics, I don't >>> think VMs will help you. Nor will the VM emulate a GPU like it does an
    ethernet NIC or USB drive or CDROM.

    VM's don't emulate. They "connect". That's a key difference you don't
    seem to get.

    IAC, sim racing is not "gaming".


    Stick with Bootcamp for your Sim Racing, then boot MacOS to do the analysis >>> of what you've collected.If the game works on Fusion or Parallels, you'll >>> have the best of both worlds.

    Try VirtualBox for free but you'll have to buy a copy of Windows to run your
    game on it. If it works well enough, you're good to go. Otherwise you'll >>> have
    to decide if Bootcamp and rebooting is OK or you're gonna spend for VMware's
    Fusion or Parallels.
    That's your call.

    VB is nowhere as good as Fusion (VMWare) or Parallels. It would be like
    taking a Honda Civic for a test drive to decide on buying a Honda Accord
    2L Turbo.

    My apologies for not making it clear. I know the x86 instruction isn't being "emulated" by the current batch of VM software. My key point is that to access the GPU and other specific hardware under Windows, the OS does so through the drivers written for Windows. To do the same under Fusion/Parallels, the software has to go through the Windows virtual machine, which is "trapped" by Fusion/Parallels and the Windows API representing an ethernet NIC or a USB card or a CDROM (which is pretending to be that card which may or may not exist on your Mac...my ethernet NIC on my MacPro isn't a what VMware is presenting to Windows--to me that's emulating the NIC, but I quibble).

    And completely irrelevant to the OP's needs. He's not "gaming", he's
    doing simulation.

    The GPU these games might use from Nvidia may not work on a MacPro. They certainly won't exist on a laptop. So Fusion/Parallels traps those HW calls or tells the Windows VM "I don't have that hardware".

    Apple put in various GPU's. My iMac for example is NVIDIA.

    Fusion's graphics uses various schemes to "be fast" - that includes
    OpenCL. The overhead in transferring such to the GPU via the host OS
    would be very minimal and include DMA/PCIe schemes that involve very
    little transfer of information under s/w control. So the vast bulk of graphics info from the Windows app to the GPU would bypass Mac OS
    (except in the "setting up" stage).


    While I wrote my post, it occurred to me that perhaps the OP could create their analysis code and program in a Docker container. It would use whatever OS they decide on inside the container, run the results using the Dockerized environment and run under W10's Docker or MacOS' Docker.

    The simplest solution for dual OS on one machine is a VM. And most
    games will be fine. The OP's needs would be well met. But I've also suggested he look into VNC to remotely access his PC.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 10:02:08 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-22 17:52, Jolly Roger wrote:
    On 2020-05-22, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 13:48, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/21/20 4:43 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
    I would try Wine first, and if that doesn't work I' use a VM. My
    current favorite is VMware Fusion, but Parallels Desktop is another
    good choice. AS you may know, there are a few different ways to run
    Windows apps on Macs, ranked from least expensive to most expensive:

    Wine

    You can use Wine, a freeware application that provides a Windows
    compatibility layer, to run Windows apps without the Windows
    operating system.

    I thought I had followed up to this but it hasn't posted so I must
    have screwed up.

    Since I am only trying to run one program, Wine looks like a good way
    to go.  However, I found the Wine web site, winehq.org, and
    discovered Catalina is not currently supported.  I'm still running
    Mojave but that is only because a key app I run also doesn't work
    under Catalina yet. Any idea when/if Wine will support Catalina?

    I used Wine about 5 years ago with little overall success. I don't
    recall the issue but the app I "wined" lost some functionality in the
    process and also had some strange display behaviour.

    I've used Wine for many years, with plenty of success running several different Windows apps, ranging from various small utilities to Call of
    Duty 4: Modern Warfare.

    Great. The one app I did attempt to Wine (LViewPro32) did not fare well.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 10:04:24 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-23 18:35, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/23/20 4:49 PM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/23/20 11:34 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/22/20 3:26 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    I believe you'd be better off overall to simply remote log into your
    PC from the Mac.  RealVNC has tools for that.  Then you can "window" >>>> on the PC from the Mac and transferring files can be done several ways. >>>> https://www.realvnc.com/en/connect/download/vnc/

    Didn't know I could do that.  I'll have to check it out.  Thanks.

    I was able to download this and get it working.  I haven't tried to do
    anything yet but it looks good so far.  Thanks.

    OK.  Apparently I can do anything on the PC but I can't move files back
    and forth using the personal version.  Fortunately I can do that with
    file sharing so I think I'm in good shape.  Thanks, again.

    I realized this might be your better solution (not to mention gratis) as
    I have a remote Linux box doing protein folding downstairs using the
    powerful GPU on that machine. I monitor it from here. I may also begin
    doing handbrake jobs on there controlled from here but I can't seem to
    get Handbrake / HBCLI to use the GPU.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Lewis@g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 14:16:04 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In message <U_uyG.159499$2e3.116562@fx35.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 17:42, Lewis wrote:
    In message <1_WdndOiSJmNuFXDnZ2dnUU7-N3NnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 10:53, Lewis wrote:
    In message <uq2dna6bsMR9TFrDnZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-21 15:29, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the >>>>>>> ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an >>>>>>> analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient.
    However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more >>>>>>> capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather >>>>>>> transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for
    something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not >>>>>>> kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and >>>>>>> the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago
    and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a
    free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between
    environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're >>>>>> running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and
    install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration City.
    Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    This is misleading.

    VM's run on the hardware. It's not emulation. So whatever task you're >>>>> doing on the whole machine, you would have been doing it under one OS or >>>>> the other in any case.

    Besides, when running bootcamp you can't drag and drop files between the >>>>> two OS's like you can, seamlessly, with a VM. That is a key benefit. >>>>
    Yes, there's a "cost", but it is extremely minimal. The x86 processor >>>>> has many features designed solely with VMs in mind - likewise Mac OS. >>>>
    The only place it really makes a difference that may be notiable is in >>>> games, and even there, it has to be a twitchy game and you have to be
    good at it.

    And Parallels is even better at getting out of the way per tests done a >>>>> few years ago. (I use VMWare Fusion because I always have, but I could >>>>> switch...)

    I've used both, but not recently. My impression of the current state from >>>> others is that Parallels is slightly faster and VMware Fusion is
    slightly more stable.

    What I do not like about them is you have to buy the software again
    every year, and I have little enough need to Windows that it is simply >>>> not worth it.

    No you don't.

    Do.

    No you do not _have_ to do so annually. There is no contractual or (usually) any technical reason to do so.

    If you want it to work on the current OS, as I said.

    It only has to be up-to-date enough. I've been running Fusion since
    2008 and only paid for updates 4 times. No issues.

    I was talking about Parallels more than Fusion, but Fusion did have at
    least two paid updates to stay compatible with the current version of the
    OS and the previous version would not run.

    --
    It's Tchaikovsky's 'Another One Bites the Dust'," said Crowley,
    closing his eyes as they went through Slough.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Lewis@g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 14:32:29 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In message <I9vyG.211424$872.15080@fx38.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-23 18:35, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/23/20 4:49 PM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/23/20 11:34 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/22/20 3:26 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    I believe you'd be better off overall to simply remote log into your >>>>> PC from the Mac.  RealVNC has tools for that.  Then you can "window" >>>>> on the PC from the Mac and transferring files can be done several ways. >>>>> https://www.realvnc.com/en/connect/download/vnc/

    Didn't know I could do that.  I'll have to check it out.  Thanks.

    I was able to download this and get it working.  I haven't tried to do >>> anything yet but it looks good so far.  Thanks.

    OK.  Apparently I can do anything on the PC but I can't move files back
    and forth using the personal version.  Fortunately I can do that with
    file sharing so I think I'm in good shape.  Thanks, again.

    I realized this might be your better solution (not to mention gratis) as
    I have a remote Linux box doing protein folding downstairs using the powerful GPU on that machine. I monitor it from here. I may also begin doing handbrake jobs on there controlled from here but I can't seem to
    get Handbrake / HBCLI to use the GPU.

    Assuming you have an nvidia GPU, you use the nvenc_h265 encoder. If you
    have a Mac with a recent Intel chip with hardware encoding.decoding you
    use...

    Oh crap, I've forgotten.

    AppleToolbox? VideoToolbox? Something like that, but I haven't done that
    from the command line (I was using ffmpeg instead).

    In Handbrake you setup your custom profile in the GUI, then use it via
    the -z flag from the command line. At least last time I looked, there
    was no way to directly access the hardware encoders from the command
    line without a saved profile.

    ah, I found this in my history:

    HandBrakeCLI -e vt_h265 -i <file> -o <newfile>

    which used the intel hardwarede encoding on my 8th gen i7. I would guess
    -e nvenc_h265 will get you the nvidia hardware.



    --
    I don't need no stinking taglines.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 13:54:48 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-24 10:32, Lewis wrote:
    In message <I9vyG.211424$872.15080@fx38.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-23 18:35, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/23/20 4:49 PM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/23/20 11:34 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/22/20 3:26 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    I believe you'd be better off overall to simply remote log into your >>>>>> PC from the Mac.  RealVNC has tools for that.  Then you can "window" >>>>>> on the PC from the Mac and transferring files can be done several ways. >>>>>> https://www.realvnc.com/en/connect/download/vnc/

    Didn't know I could do that.  I'll have to check it out.  Thanks.

    I was able to download this and get it working.  I haven't tried to do >>>> anything yet but it looks good so far.  Thanks.

    OK.  Apparently I can do anything on the PC but I can't move files back >>> and forth using the personal version.  Fortunately I can do that with
    file sharing so I think I'm in good shape.  Thanks, again.

    I realized this might be your better solution (not to mention gratis) as
    I have a remote Linux box doing protein folding downstairs using the
    powerful GPU on that machine. I monitor it from here. I may also begin
    doing handbrake jobs on there controlled from here but I can't seem to
    get Handbrake / HBCLI to use the GPU.

    Assuming you have an nvidia GPU, you use the nvenc_h265 encoder. If you
    have a Mac with a recent Intel chip with hardware encoding.decoding you use...

    Oh crap, I've forgotten.

    AppleToolbox? VideoToolbox? Something like that, but I haven't done that
    from the command line (I was using ffmpeg instead).

    In Handbrake you setup your custom profile in the GUI, then use it via
    the -z flag from the command line. At least last time I looked, there
    was no way to directly access the hardware encoders from the command
    line without a saved profile.

    ah, I found this in my history:

    HandBrakeCLI -e vt_h265 -i <file> -o <newfile>

    which used the intel hardwarede encoding on my 8th gen i7. I would guess
    -e nvenc_h265 will get you the nvidia hardware.

    I'll look into the nvenc_h265 encoder - didn't realize HB would need
    such. (It may already be in there as I was doing other Nvidia updates a
    few weeks ago such as for OpenCL).
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 13:56:26 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-24 10:16, Lewis wrote:
    In message <U_uyG.159499$2e3.116562@fx35.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 17:42, Lewis wrote:
    In message <1_WdndOiSJmNuFXDnZ2dnUU7-N3NnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 10:53, Lewis wrote:
    In message <uq2dna6bsMR9TFrDnZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-21 15:29, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
    On 21-May-2020, Robert Peirce wrote
    (in article <ra6j0s$e4k$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    I have a PC I use strictly for sim racing. The sim program has the >>>>>>>> ability to generate various driving data. So far I have been using an >>>>>>>> analysis program that runs on Windows and Macs so it is very convenient.
    However, it s a bit limited. There are PC only programs that are more >>>>>>>> capable but it is not convenient to run them on the sim rig. I'd rather
    transfer the data to my Mac and analyze it there.

    I don't want to have to reboot into bootcamp for this so I'm looking for
    something that can run a PC program in the Mac OS environment. I've not
    kept up with this technology so I have no idea of what is available and
    the pros and cons.

    I'm by no means a virtualization expert, having come to it some 10 years ago
    and it became a major part of my day job.

    One thing that non-techies forget--TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a
    free lunch). You're essentially timesharing the computers resources between
    environments. That costs something. Bootcamp doesn't timeshare. You're >>>>>>> running Windows with drivers that specifically support Mac hardware. Try and
    install Windows on a Mac directly and you're going to be in Frustration City.
    Install Ubuntu instead. At least that works. Sort of.

    This is misleading.

    VM's run on the hardware. It's not emulation. So whatever task you're >>>>>> doing on the whole machine, you would have been doing it under one OS or >>>>>> the other in any case.

    Besides, when running bootcamp you can't drag and drop files between the >>>>>> two OS's like you can, seamlessly, with a VM. That is a key benefit. >>>>>
    Yes, there's a "cost", but it is extremely minimal. The x86 processor >>>>>> has many features designed solely with VMs in mind - likewise Mac OS. >>>>>
    The only place it really makes a difference that may be notiable is in >>>>> games, and even there, it has to be a twitchy game and you have to be >>>>> good at it.

    And Parallels is even better at getting out of the way per tests done a >>>>>> few years ago. (I use VMWare Fusion because I always have, but I could >>>>>> switch...)

    I've used both, but not recently. My impression of the current state from >>>>> others is that Parallels is slightly faster and VMware Fusion is
    slightly more stable.

    What I do not like about them is you have to buy the software again
    every year, and I have little enough need to Windows that it is simply >>>>> not worth it.

    No you don't.

    Do.

    No you do not _have_ to do so annually. There is no contractual or
    (usually) any technical reason to do so.

    If you want it to work on the current OS, as I said.

    Nope. Given v. Fusion would go 2 or 3 rounds of Mac OS majors (with
    minor (free) updates).

    It only has to be up-to-date enough. I've been running Fusion since
    2008 and only paid for updates 4 times. No issues.

    I was talking about Parallels more than Fusion, but Fusion did have at
    least two paid updates to stay compatible with the current version of the
    OS and the previous version would not run.

    Nope. It would bridge fine in my case over 2 or 3 major Mac OS versions.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Lewis@g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies to comp.sys.mac.apps on Sun May 24 21:37:45 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    In message <fzyyG.186166$Oi4.98294@fx43.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    Nope. It would bridge fine in my case over 2 or 3 major Mac OS versions.

    It absolutely did not, but I am not going to go back to figure out
    which versions this was because I do not care enough to spend the time.
    Enough to say, the repeated required updates with the programs caused me
    to stop using either one of them, but it was worse with Parallels.

    After two updates it was cheaper to buy a cheap-ass PC than to pay for
    the updates.

    --
    He wasn't good or evil or cruel or extreme in any way but one, which
    was that he had elevated greyness to the status of a fine art and
    cultivated a mind that was as bleak and pitiless and logical as
    the slopes of Hell.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Jolly Roger@jollyroger@pobox.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Mon May 25 01:39:30 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-24, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 17:52, Jolly Roger wrote:
    On 2020-05-22, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 13:48, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/21/20 4:43 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
    I would try Wine first, and if that doesn't work I' use a VM. My
    current favorite is VMware Fusion, but Parallels Desktop is another
    good choice. AS you may know, there are a few different ways to run >>>>> Windows apps on Macs, ranked from least expensive to most expensive: >>>>>
    Wine

    You can use Wine, a freeware application that provides a Windows
    compatibility layer, to run Windows apps without the Windows
    operating system.

    I thought I had followed up to this but it hasn't posted so I must
    have screwed up.

    Since I am only trying to run one program, Wine looks like a good way
    to go.  However, I found the Wine web site, winehq.org, and
    discovered Catalina is not currently supported.  I'm still running
    Mojave but that is only because a key app I run also doesn't work
    under Catalina yet. Any idea when/if Wine will support Catalina?

    I used Wine about 5 years ago with little overall success. I don't
    recall the issue but the app I "wined" lost some functionality in the
    process and also had some strange display behaviour.

    I've used Wine for many years, with plenty of success running several
    different Windows apps, ranging from various small utilities to Call of
    Duty 4: Modern Warfare.

    Great. The one app I did attempt to Wine (LViewPro32) did not fare well.

    The point is your sample of one is too small. Many apps run well enough
    to perform their primary function. It's worth trying.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Mon May 25 07:30:56 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-24 17:37, Lewis wrote:
    In message <fzyyG.186166$Oi4.98294@fx43.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    Nope. It would bridge fine in my case over 2 or 3 major Mac OS versions.

    It absolutely did not,


    Absolutely did. I don't like paying for things I don't need to pay for anymore than anyone else so only paid for upgrades when required.
    Generally Mac OS on my home machine was up to date within a month of a
    major release. Didn't need pay for Fusion updates at that rate.

    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alan Browne@bitbucket@blackhole.com to comp.sys.mac.apps on Mon May 25 07:36:24 2020
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

    On 2020-05-24 21:39, Jolly Roger wrote:
    On 2020-05-24, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 17:52, Jolly Roger wrote:
    On 2020-05-22, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
    On 2020-05-22 13:48, Robert Peirce wrote:
    On 5/21/20 4:43 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
    I would try Wine first, and if that doesn't work I' use a VM. My
    current favorite is VMware Fusion, but Parallels Desktop is another >>>>>> good choice. AS you may know, there are a few different ways to run >>>>>> Windows apps on Macs, ranked from least expensive to most expensive: >>>>>>
    Wine

    You can use Wine, a freeware application that provides a Windows
    compatibility layer, to run Windows apps without the Windows
    operating system.

    I thought I had followed up to this but it hasn't posted so I must
    have screwed up.

    Since I am only trying to run one program, Wine looks like a good way >>>>> to go.  However, I found the Wine web site, winehq.org, and
    discovered Catalina is not currently supported.  I'm still running
    Mojave but that is only because a key app I run also doesn't work
    under Catalina yet. Any idea when/if Wine will support Catalina?

    I used Wine about 5 years ago with little overall success. I don't
    recall the issue but the app I "wined" lost some functionality in the
    process and also had some strange display behaviour.

    I've used Wine for many years, with plenty of success running several
    different Windows apps, ranging from various small utilities to Call of
    Duty 4: Modern Warfare.

    Great. The one app I did attempt to Wine (LViewPro32) did not fare well.

    The point is your sample of one is too small. Many apps run well enough
    to perform their primary function. It's worth trying.

    I realize that, but since the VM is useful for various things, ... well
    there it is.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113