From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

HB wrote (in alt.homebrewing):

Nobody uses this newsgroup?

I check it occasionally, thus I've seen your post. I've always spent
most of my time over at rec.crafts.brewing when using Usenet, but the
level of spam there is getting to be such a problem that I'm just about
ready to quit. I just checked alt.beer.home-brewing, as I occasionally
do, and the level of traffic there is just about dead, too, so there
isn't much value to Usenet anymore. Spammers really have ruined things.

I do a lot of lurking on a number of brewing mailing lists and bulletin boards. They are generally moderated pretty well, so the spammers can't
ruin those forums. If you need some links, let me know.

Cheers.
--
Bill Velek, www.tinyurl.com/BVELEK => to my following homebrewer sites: Grow-Hops: Homebrewer's Garden: hops/barley/herbs, with 2,900+ members! BrewEquip: exclusively about brewing equipment, now has 1,200+ members! "Homebrewers" Team donated 222+ YEARS of computing to medical research!
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

Bill Velek wrote:

HB wrote (in alt.homebrewing):

Nobody uses this newsgroup?

I check it occasionally, thus I've seen your post. I've always spent
most of my time over at rec.crafts.brewing when using Usenet, but the
level of spam there is getting to be such a problem that I'm just about ready to quit. I just checked alt.beer.home-brewing, as I occasionally
do, and the level of traffic there is just about dead, too, so there
isn't much value to Usenet anymore. Spammers really have ruined things.

While the value of Usenet has declined precipitously from its golden
days, one of the bright places still is rec.crafts.brewing.

If you are seeing too much spam, you might consider switching providers.
In this last spurt of spam in rec.crafts.brewing, I realized that
Giganews' spam filtering was ineffective, but none of the spam appeared
on my feed from Individual. For ten Euros a year you can get a feed
that doesn't contain much spam at all. Or you can just ignore it, or
laugh at it.

I still find quite a bit of useful information in rec.crafts.brewing,
but I don't read every article. I'm not, for example, interested in
certain folks' views on hot water heaters. But no Usenet newsgroup has
ever contained content that was 100% useful, accurate, or reliable. The
same can be said of any electronic forum.

The fact that the two alt groups are dead is irrelevant; just come to
the one that is still useful.
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-24, Steve Bonine <spb@pobox.com> wrote:

If you are seeing too much spam, you might consider switching providers.

That is not necessary.

What you need to look at is a better usenet (nntp) client. Both of you are using barely adequate newsreaders which lack the sophistication of good
scoring (filtering) capability. A prolific spammer has hit usenet,
recently. With a few short lines in my scorefile, I've killed all spam
across all newsgroups I frequent. Here's a brilliant website for learning
how to eliminate usenet spam:

http://improve-usenet.org/

Say little prayer of thanks to Blinky, who has moved on to that big coral
reef in the sky.

Go here for info on alternate newsreaders (usenet clients):

http://www.newsreaders.com/

nb

--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

notbob wrote:

Here's a brilliant website for learning
how to eliminate usenet spam:

http://improve-usenet.org/

Say little prayer of thanks to Blinky, who has moved on to that big coral reef in the sky.

Go here for info on alternate newsreaders (usenet clients):

http://www.newsreaders.com/

The improve-usenet.org site is mainly a set of instructions for killing
all posts from Google Groups. The problem is that if everyone starts
doing this, it's hard to see how usenet will keep from dying out
completely. Since almost all ISPs have dropped usenet access, newbies
basically have two choices:
(1) Post via Google Groups.
(2) Pay for usenet access, and install specialized software.
I think very few newbies are going to go to the time and expense of
doing 2 until after they've already stuck a toe in the water with 1
and found that it was enjoyable. But they're never going to get past 1
if they try it and find that nobody ever sees or responds to their
posts.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe more usenet groups should become moderated groups...?

I suspect that we also have sort of a vicious cycle with spam. A newbie casually looking at usenet sees an extremely low signal-to-noise ratio.
(The newbie doesn't know anything about filtering.) That makes usenet
look useless, so the newbie goes to a web-based forum instead. Because
usenet is bleeding old users, and failing to get any infusion of
newbies, there's less signal. Because there's less signal, the
signal-to-noise ratio gets lower. Seems like a death spiral to me.
Pretty soon usenet will be like ham radio -- about as relevant to
young people as collecting old jazz LPs.
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-24, Ben Crowell <crowell09@lightSPAMandISmatterEVIL.com> wrote:

The improve-usenet.org site is mainly a set of instructions for killing
all posts from Google Groups.

It's a start. Use the knowledge it provides and build on it. Duh!

The problem is that if everyone starts
doing this, it's hard to see how usenet will keep from dying out
completely. Since almost all ISPs have dropped usenet access, newbies basically have two choices:
(1) Post via Google Groups.
(2) Pay for usenet access, and install specialized software.

Nonsense. I pay a commercial usenet provider $3 for 5G. I think I've used
.3G in the last year. If that's too much an imposition for you, you SHOULD leave.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe more usenet groups should become moderated groups...?

NOT! You want moderated, go to web forums. Leave the frontier to those who know how to cope.

(The newbie doesn't know anything about filtering)

Well, that's pretty much the crux of the problem, isn't it. Everyone wants something, but are unwilling to expend any effort to get it. I say we jes
put 'em in iron lungs with a virtual reality program and let the timer wind down. I doubt they'll even notice and they certainly won't be missed.

nb
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

Steve Bonine <spb@pobox.com> wrote:

If you are seeing too much spam, you might consider switching providers.
In this last spurt of spam in rec.crafts.brewing...

I guess my USENET provider does excellent spam filtering.
I haven't seen a single spam message.
--
Joel Plutchak

"New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any
other reason but because they are not already common." - John Locke
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

notbob wrote:

Duh!

One of the most wonderful things about usenet is that it lets you
killfile people who are rude and hostile.

Plonk.
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-24, Joel <plutchak@see.headers> wrote:

I guess my USENET provider does excellent spam filtering.
I haven't seen a single spam message.

An .edu domain. I should hope so!

nb
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:

On 2009-05-24, Joel <plutchak@see.headers> wrote:

I guess my USENET provider does excellent spam filtering.
I haven't seen a single spam message.

An .edu domain. I should hope so!

Actually, I figure it's even less likely for an EDU
domain. For starters, there are no real paying customers
to keep happy. Add to that that universities, like every
other business these days, are starting to drop services
that cost money to run yet aren't viewed as essential. That
makes for fewer and fewer USENET-providing schools in
general.
USENET was officially dropped by the IT departmentt at
the university where I work, and is now run by (IIRC) the
local ACM chapter. (Kudos to them!)
--
Joel Plutchak

"New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any
other reason but because they are not already common." - John Locke
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

notbob wrote:

Ben Crowell wrote:

The improve-usenet.org site is mainly a set of instructions for killing
all posts from Google Groups.

It's a start. Use the knowledge it provides and build on it. Duh!

Yes, it's a start, but in the wrong direction.

The problem is that if everyone starts
doing this, it's hard to see how usenet will keep from dying out
completely. Since almost all ISPs have dropped usenet access, newbies
basically have two choices:
(1) Post via Google Groups.
(2) Pay for usenet access, and install specialized software.

Nonsense. I pay a commercial usenet provider $3 for 5G. I think I've used .3G in the last year. If that's too much an imposition for you, you SHOULD leave.

Congratulations. You just made Ben's point.

This elitist Usenet attitude will lead to it's obvious conclusion -- an elitist Usenet. The thing that made Usenet great during its golden
years was the users. Without them, there's nothing left. Discouraging
new users is the best way to insure and accelerate the death of Usenet.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe more usenet groups should become
moderated groups...?

NOT! You want moderated, go to web forums. Leave the frontier to those who know how to cope.

Yes, "those who know how to cope". That fraction of the population is ridiculously tiny now and dropping. rec.crafts.brewing is one of the
few newsgroups that still has a critical mass of participants, and even
it is seeing a continuing decline in participation.

So here you are "notbob", hiding behind an alias, being rude and
elitist. Good plan.

(The newbie doesn't know anything about filtering)

Well, that's pretty much the crux of the problem, isn't it. Everyone wants something, but are unwilling to expend any effort to get it. I say we jes put 'em in iron lungs with a virtual reality program and let the timer wind down. I doubt they'll even notice and they certainly won't be missed.

Do you really think that there's a correlation between people who are
willing to climb the learning curve to participate in Usenet and
knowledge, in this specific case, about brewing beer? Why should a knowledgeable potential participant in a conversation about brewing pick Usenet over cranking up a familiar web browser and joining a web forum?

The answer, today, is that there's enough good information in rec.crafts.brewing to lure potential participants and keep current ones.
Real people don't spend their precious idle time installing software
and climbing learning curves just because they enjoy those tasks.
They're interested in the end goal -- finding out more about brewing
beer, in this case.

So if you really care about the future of Usenet, and rec.crafts.brewing
in particular, the way you could help is by encouraging people to join
in, rather than making yourself sound like a genius because you know how
and spewing vitriol at those who try to learn.
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-24, Joel <plutchak@see.headers> wrote:

Actually, I figure it's even less likely for an EDU
domain. For starters, there are no real paying customers
to keep happy.

Really? I would think students in CS would be all over spam on their
networks. Not only to show their coding/computing prowess, but so they themselves wouldn't have to suffer the crap.

nb
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-24, Steve Bonine <spb@pobox.com> wrote:

and spewing vitriol at those who try to learn.

Sure pal, "try to learn".

Are the poor little usenet users being bothered? Can't those providers and moderators deal with those pesky usenet problems. We are so rightous in our pursuit of brewing knowledge, all other efforts are irrelevant. Do you
have the maid come in and sterilize your equipment, too?

nb
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-24, Ben Crowell <crowell09@lightSPAMandISmatterEVIL.com> wrote:

notbob wrote:

Duh!

One of the most wonderful things about usenet is that it lets you
killfile people who are rude and hostile.

Plonk.

boo hoo.....
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

Bill Velek wrote:

HB wrote (in alt.homebrewing):

Nobody uses this newsgroup?

I check it occasionally, thus I've seen your post. I've always spent
most of my time over at rec.crafts.brewing when using Usenet, but the
level of spam there is getting to be such a problem that I'm just
about ready to quit. I just checked alt.beer.home-brewing, as I
occasionally do, and the level of traffic there is just about dead,
too, so there isn't much value to Usenet anymore. Spammers really
have ruined things.

I haven't noticed spam problems here since I switched to free news.motzerella.net when comcast bailed on offering a newsserver.


--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On Sun, 24 May 2009 00:59:09 -0500, Bill Velek wrote:

HB wrote (in alt.homebrewing):

Nobody uses this newsgroup?

I check it occasionally, thus I've seen your post. I've always spent
most of my time over at rec.crafts.brewing when using Usenet, but the
level of spam there is getting to be such a problem that I'm just about >ready to quit. I just checked alt.beer.home-brewing, as I occasionally
do, and the level of traffic there is just about dead, too, so there
isn't much value to Usenet anymore. Spammers really have ruined things.

I use slrn for reading news, and I haven't seen any spam. I still see crossposts, so I can only assume any spammer is crossing into newsgroups
I have killed.

Really, it's all about the newsreader and kill/score file. I wold never
even *want* to use an ISP that filters USENET.

--
TARogue (t a r o g u e (at) y a h o o . c o m)
"So I hated life, because what is done under the sun was grievous
to me; for all is vanity and a chasing after wind." Ecclesiastes 2:17
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

I haven't noticed spam problems here since I switched to free >news.motzerella.net when comcast bailed on offering a newsserver.

Hi

I think you probably mean <news.motzarella.org> - too much home brew
before posting???? 8^)

Regards
KGB

--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

Bill Velek wrote:

I do a lot of lurking on a number of brewing mailing lists and bulletin boards. They are generally moderated pretty well, so the spammers can't
ruin those forums. If you need some links, let me know.

Cheers.

Bill,

I'm new to homebrewing. I'd appreciate any links, etc. You can send
anything to (remove the spaces e h r i c h w e i s s (at) g m a i l
(dot) com if you don't want to post them here.

Thanks
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

notbob wrote:

Nonsense. I pay a commercial usenet provider $3 for 5G. I think I've used .3G in the last year. If that's too much an imposition for you, you SHOULD leave.

Send me $50. You don't need to know why, you only need to know it's
AWESOME!!

That's what newbies(hell all of us really) hear every single day. Why
should they think a usenet provider would be any different from all the
other people who want their money online? And yet you're expecting that
someone who has never used usenet will fork over $$$ for a)something
they've never seen or b)something they've seen but seems to be full of
spam.

We're not going to get any new people using that method since it looks
like everything else, only worse.
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-25, Eric Haddix <REMOVE-CAPSburnFORout@sEtMdAiIoL.com> wrote:

other people who want their money online? And yet you're expecting that someone who has never used usenet will fork over $$$ for a)something
they've never seen or b)something they've seen but seems to be full of
spam.

WTF? What the Hell you talking about? I don't expect a damn thing,
including my usenet provider weeding out the twits. If they did, I wouldn't have seen your post!

nb


--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

Eric Haddix wrote:

snip

I'm new to homebrewing. I'd appreciate any links, etc. You can send
anything to ... snip ... if you don't want to post them here.

I'll be happy to post them here for the benefit of other newbies, too,
but first I have a couple of comments.

I didn't mean to raise a ruckus here, and despite the comments, Usenet
is definitely on its way out; I'm not going to pay for Usenet, even if a provider does filter better, and I'm not going to install new software.
Both of them are losing propositions. I stick around here out of
loyalty, despite the declining 'signal-to-noise' ratio; I cut my teeth
re homebrewing on r.c.b. back in the 90's when there weren't as many
choices of other sources of brewing info, and spam wasn't as bad. I owe
a lot to this community, so I stick around -- although other obligations prevent me from contributing as much as I used to, and would like to.

Now, at the risk of causing the bleeding here to be any worse, there are
three alternatives that I have found _more_ attractive for brewing info: first, there are numerous Internet Forums; second, there are numerous
Yahoo Groups; and third, there are dedicated mailing-lists. The
distinctions between the three are becoming more blurred; Yahoo Groups includes emailing of posts, _if_ you _SELECT_ that _option_ (or don't 'opt-out' of it), making it essentially a mail-list, but with _many_ additional features; and now many blogs and Internet Forums usually
include an option to receive email _notification_ of posts to a thread
or even to an entire section of the forum, making them functionally
close to a mail-list. Some of the mail-lists have expanded over the
years to include 'forums', too, but I just keep using the mail-list.

Here are a few 'mailing lists' that I highly recommend:
1 - Homebrew Digest -- send an email to request@hbd.org with the word "subscribe" in the subject line;
2 - UK (United Kingdom) Homebrew -- which has a forum but to subscribe
go to http://www.ukhomebrew.info/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=30
3 - MembersOfBarleyment (Canadian group) = brewers@wort.ca

Here are a few 'forums' that I highly recommend (that I've enjoyed):
1 - BrewBoard (aka the 'GreenBoard') = http://www.brewboard.com
2 - Beer Advocate = http://beeradvocate.com/forum/list/2
3 - Northern Brewer = http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewforum.php?f=1
4 - Bodensatz Brewing = http://www.bodensatz.com/forum/index.php
5 - Brewing Network = www.thebrewingnetwork.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=6
6 - ProBrewer -- www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=29
-- the nice thing about ProBrewer is that you can subscribe to an entire section of the forum and receive email notification of posts, e.g.,
"Process and Techniques", etc.

I've got at least 20 others, although less activity, etc. They are easy
to find if you will just 'google' for them.

Here are what I think are the better Yahoo Groups:
1 - Home-Brew (1,989 members) = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/home_brew/
2 - MrBeerBrewingClub = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mrbeerbrewingclub/
3 - *Zymurgy (494 members) = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zymurgy/
*Note that I am co-owner of the 'Zymurgy' group, but that is only so
that the group can survive if the founder dies. There are MANY brewing groups, many of them local clubs, so I'd recommend that after joining
Yahoo, search their groups under "brewing".

There are lots more, both Yahoo and other, than I have the time to list.

Naturally, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the brewing groups which I
have personally founded over at Yahoo - see my 'signature' lines, below.
--
Bill Velek, www.tinyurl.com/BVELEK => to my following homebrewer sites: Grow-Hops: Homebrewer's Garden: hops/barley/herbs, with 2,900+ members! BrewEquip: exclusively about brewing equipment, now has 1,200+ members! "Homebrewers" Team donated 222+ YEARS of computing to medical research!
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

Bill Velek wrote:

I didn't mean to raise a ruckus here, and despite the comments, Usenet
is definitely on its way out; I'm not going to pay for Usenet, even if a provider does filter better, and I'm not going to install new software.
Both of them are losing propositions. I stick around here out of
loyalty, despite the declining 'signal-to-noise' ratio; I cut my teeth
re homebrewing on r.c.b. back in the 90's when there weren't as many
choices of other sources of brewing info, and spam wasn't as bad. I owe
a lot to this community, so I stick around -- although other obligations prevent me from contributing as much as I used to, and would like to.

I've been around for about the same time and have the same opinion: we
need to get rid of spammers, not buy/install software to deal with them.
That's like playing whack-a-mole and is a dangerous state of mind in
which to be stuck. I mean a spammer could supply the problem and what
appears to be a solution without a break in their ethics.

That said, I recently joined some of the yahoo groups(maybe yours, I'm
not sure yet) and I'll be checking out those other resources ASAP.

I'll do my best to stick around...I love usenet despite all its current limitations.

Thanks

Eric
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-25, Eric Haddix <REMOVE-CAPSburnFORout@sEtMdAiIoL.com> wrote:

need to get rid of spammers, not buy/install software to deal with them.

Yeah, that's gonna happen.

That's like playing whack-a-mole and is a dangerous state of mind in
which to be stuck.

The logic in this group is beyond belief. Everyone agrees if you don't sanitize, you'll probably get contamination. You can't sit back and say, someone should outlaw contamination cuz I shouldn't have to buy/use
sanitation products/processes. We all agree we have to be proactive with respect to contamination, but when it comes to contaminating usenet, someone else should be responsible. Un-freakin-believable!

appears to be a solution without a break in their ethics.

Like mold and bacteria, spammers HAVE NO ETHICS! Geez, are you ppl that stupid?

I'll do my best to stick around...I love usenet despite all its current limitations.

The only limitations I'm seeing is the lack of willingness of users to make some sort of effort. I suffer absolutely no spam and I paid nothing for the software to accomplish this amazing feat. If you ppl spent as much time solving your own problem as you do sniveling about it, your problem wouldn't exist.

nb
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

In article <3d0bf$4a18e23b$6214b64d$8140@ALLTEL.NET>,
Bill Velek <billvelek@windstream.net> wrote:

I check it occasionally, thus I've seen your post. I've always spent
most of my time over at rec.crafts.brewing when using Usenet, but the
level of spam there is getting to be such a problem that I'm just about >ready to quit. I just checked alt.beer.home-brewing, as I occasionally
do, and the level of traffic there is just about dead, too, so there
isn't much value to Usenet anymore. Spammers really have ruined things.

~/News/KILL is your friend. :-)

(There was an uptick in spam last week, which I filtered out by adding two
news providers to my global killfile...it wasn't just this group, but
several others I follow. Since sometime Friday, though, this group at least hasn't been spammed. It might be safe for me to yank the killfile rules I added, as there's a slight chance a legitimate poster might use the same services...but I've not done that yet.)

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-26, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.DIESPAMMERSDIE.us> wrote:

~/News/KILL is your friend. :-)

(There was an uptick in spam last week, which I filtered out by adding two news providers to my global killfile...it wasn't just this group, but
several others I follow. Since sometime Friday, though, this group at least hasn't been spammed. It might be safe for me to yank the killfile rules I added, as there's a slight chance a legitimate poster might use the same services...but I've not done that yet.)

Thank you, to someone who "gets it".

Bottom line: You're big boys, now, and Mommy is no longer going to do it for you.

nb
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

notbob wrote:

WTF? What the Hell you talking about? I don't expect a damn thing, including my usenet provider weeding out the twits.

That's exactly what you said, maybe you should read what you write,
twit. BTW, *puuuuhlonk*!
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

notbob wrote:

Yeah, that's gonna happen.

I've taken down several spam operations in my time. Have you done
anything more than blocked them?


To address your "sanitize" analogy. Your assertion is more akin to
putting a towel over everything so you can't see if there is any
sanitization needed.
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108

From Newsgroup: alt.beer.home-brewing

On 2009-05-26, Eric Haddix <REMOVE-CAPSburnFORout@sEtMdAiIoL.com> wrote:

I've taken down several spam operations in my time. Have you done
anything more than blocked them?

On usenet? You asked the person if they know the diff between email and
usenet and then tell us how you've taken down spammers on email. What's
that got to do with usenet?

To address your "sanitize" analogy. Your assertion is more akin to
putting a towel over everything so you can't see if there is any
sanitization needed.

I proactively sanitize my brewing equipment and do the same with my incoming usenet traffic. I make a concerted effort to learn how to do something and then I do it. How is that like putting a towel over my head.

Chryst, you can't even admin yer own brain.

nb
--- Synchronet 3.17a-Linux NewsLink 1.108